That is a military order. Or: The Section physician of the internal section will held instructions for non-commissioned officers and men tomorrow afternoon. Or: Tomorrow I shall inspect the hospital; section physicians, nurses, non-commissioned officers, and so forth, will be at their posts. Those are clearly military orders. The chief physician in his capacity as military superior can give them.
Now, to stick to this example, the next morning the chief physician begins his inspection tour. In the surgical section he looks at the patient and the case histories. He sees that the case histories are not detailed enough, that some entry is missing, that everything that should be there is not there. Then he can give an order: In two days I want to see these case histories filled out completely.
Now, he comes up to a patient who has just arrived. The section physician presents the patient and explains what his diagnosis is and what treatment he intends to give the patient. The chief physician does not agree. He has the impression that something is overlooked. To take a si??? example, the chief physician thinks that it is appendicitis which must be operated on immediately, while the section physician says, "No, I don't need to operate."
Now, the two do not agree. The section physician, who is in charge of caring for the patient, says that it is not necessary to operate. The chief physician, on the other hand has the impression that something must be done immediately.
And now I come to the decisive question: Is it sufficient for the chief physician to say, "My point of view is that this patient needs an operation," and then let the thing go, whether the section physician does it or not? In contrast to the example given before of the case histories, he can not order this patient to be operated on. That cannot be done. He can only express his medical opinion, but the patient must not suffer from this. By announcing his opinion and the doing nothing else, the chief physician would not have done his duty.
Let us carry this example further. The section physician maintains his opinion that the patient does not need an operation. He does not operate, and the patient dies. Then, without doubt, the section physician is responsible. He made a mistake, and he would be punishable, but the chief physician would not be free from guilt, because he had his duty. It is the task of the supervising medical officer to take adequate precautions, although he was of the opinion that the proper medical treatment was not be given, he did not worry about the matter; he let things take their course. He could be called to account too, because he did not see to it that someone else who treated the matter better, in his opinion, was called upon, or, perhaps, that he himself did it.
Here is the distinction: The superior can not give the order for a certain type of treatment. He can only give instructions. The responsibility for medical treatment lies with the doctor actually treating the patient. That is the difference between instructions and military orders in the Medical Service.
Now, I may add one thing which has already been brought up here. On the basis of meetings, directives were issued for treatment. They are incl in this matter of instructions. This is something else that has not been brought out enough yet. If we gave instructions which were based on ample experience of qualified and trained doctors, then we had to make available the necessary facilities for such treatment. It was important in this field that the doctor have the facilities, the equipment or the drugs which he needed to carry out his treatment. If we issued such directives for treatment then it was inseparably connected with this that the facilities mentioned were also issued, that the doctor in the field have the opportunity of g*** the drugs or the special equipment which he needed for the recommended treament.
Q Professor, you want to say that the chief must exercise care i the selection of physicians?
A Yes.
Q But that then he has no more influence on the execution of the instructions given, unless he has misgivings about the quality of the physician, of that subordinate medical officer?
A Yes. For that reason, I reserved the right to appoint doctors in the larger hospitals myself in order to be sure that the right people were put in the responsible positions.
Q. Now, I come to the next question. You have spoken several times of research assignments. Will you please tell the Tribunal something about research assignments as issued by your agency?
A There were two ways for such assignment. One was that the tasks were carried out at our own institutes; the other was that they were carried out in institutes which did not belong to the Luftwaffe. For the first way this developed mostly from the work of the institutes, which partly on the own initiative, and partly from us, obtained assignment. In the second place, there were various possibilities. First, we might learn that some institute or other was working on things which interested us, or that the directors of the institute approached us and asked us for support in some field. Then we examined the matter and the heads of the institute made clear for costs or for personnel needed for the experiments, and then we issued the assignments. The planning -- for example, take the typhus vaccine assignments which were renewed from year to year. In 1941 Haagen asked for them and then an extension was asked for repeatedly because the work had not finished.
Q We'll come to that later. Professor, what can you say about participation in typhus experiments with which you are charged? I shall show you document book 12 of the prosecution, page 79, document number 137 of prosecution, Exhibit 189, Do you have that? From this, the prosecution concludes participation or knowledge of your office concerning the typhus experiments.
A No; that is the typhus vaccine assignment which was issued to Haagen at that time. This is a production assignment for typhus vaccine, is not a research assignment about typhus. That is now I understand it. I was issued for the first time in 1942, renewed in 1943, and renewed again 1944.
Q This assignment could not have been given under your -
A No, it was given in 1942.
Q Now, will you please look at Document No. 131 of the prosecution Exhibit 309, in the German Document Book, page 99, Document Book 12. What conclusions can be drawn from this document?
A That refers to the same thing that has just been said. I said vaccine assignment, as the text says here: "The research dealing with dry spotted fever vaccine from vitelline sac cultures are to be continued.
Therefore the 4,000 RM requested for the research fund are being placed at your disposal." It is signed by my Chief of Staff, Kant. That explains what I just said. The assignment was issued in 1942, and renewed in 1943 and 1944. I must briefly go into our financial management. I assumed that in 1942, Haagen made an application in which he estimated the cost, but, as is no doubt the case in other countries too, our budget was always only from one fiscal year to the next. That was from the 1st of April to the 31st of March. But, I shall give an example -- if Haagen estimated the cost at 12,000 RM, and said from the vary beginning: "I will not use that up in the first year; that will take some time," Then an allowance was given him for 4,000 RM. Then, in the next year, he needed to give only a brief application, and he received another sum for the next year, and that was how it was here. He got this money again. This explains why this research assignment was not shown to me. It was taken care of by my Chief of Staff. It was in his competency to take care of such current matters which were not anything new. That would have been unnecessary delay, if that had been left for me.
Q Witness, do you know anything about experiments on human beings, conducted, or said to have been conducted by Professor Haagen?
A No; Haagen never told me of such experiments, either in writing or orally. He did not have any assignments from us which included such work. The yellow fever assignment, had already been withdrawn, and the typhus vaccine assignment, as the document just shown indicates, was an assignment to produce vaccine from vitelline sac; that is, chicken eggs and that has nothing to do with human beings.
Q What were your personal relations with Professor Haagen?
A I really didn't have any personal relations with Haagen. I saw him once or twice -- once, maybe. Once I visited him briefly in Strasbourg. I was on an inspection trip. I looked at the surgical clinic in Strasbourg, primarily, and the things connected with it. It was under Professor Zugfuehrth, who was a consulting physician under me, and the time was very short, but I was in the Hygiene Institute briefly.
I visited Haagen there. He showed me his institute and I remember particularly from this institute the large supply of animals. He had very well arranged and cared for stalls for animals so that one got the impression, which he confirmed when I questioned him, that his institute did a great deal of work on animals. Our office often had to help him to get experimental animals, but, in the whole institute, the whole arrangement, there was nothing to indicate that there was any connection with experiments on human beings. The persons who were with me at the time will testify, no doubt, confirm that nothing was said about human experiments, but only about animals.
Q On this occasion, did you see laboratories for the purpose of production of vaccines?
A Yes, Yes; we went through them.
Q You were no doubt interested in this production; weren't you?
A Yes; the instruction rooms, the university was connected with the institute, there was a big lecture hall where a course was taking place and then several smaller laboratories, divided into the various types of vaccines, where vaccines were produced.
Q Professor, will you tell the Tribunal about your attitude toward experiments on human beings?
A My attitude no doubt does not differ from that of the scientific world in general, the principles recognized by the scientific world in general. In experiments on human beings, one must differentiate three groups: First, experiments in which certain poisoned, disease, germs, are introduced into human beings. Then, experiments in which vaccines are introduced into the body. And, in the third place, experiments in which the environment is changed. In the experiments under one and two, these experiments take their course through the blood when material has been introduced into the body. In the experiments under three, changes of the environmental conditions, the person in charge of the experiments always has the power of changing the conditions of the experiment immediately. If there is lack of oxygen, one can introduce oxygen. In the case of drinking water experiments, one can give the subject drinking water. In other certain experiments, one can often produce conditions that will restore normal conditions.
Q What persons or group of persons may conduct such experiments on human beings?
A Primarily, the physician himself and his assistants, may experiment on themselves. That is common in medical history, and many doctors have been known to have experimented on themselves.
Q Then you are speaking of experiments in which the doctor experiments on himself to achieve a certain purpose, can the purpose always be achieved by such experiments alone?
A No, that is not always possible. Often, it is necessary to extend the experiments. It is an old custom, that the assistant or medical student, or Cadet, in the Medical Corps, volunteer for such experiments.
Q What significance do the war determined conditions have in this connection?
A The war perhaps created new situations such as epidemics also can create and it can be necessary to use other experimental subjects than the ones just mentioned. The suggestions are given and have been carried out on criminals, who have been condemned to death.
They are given an opportunity to atone for their deed in a different way by volunteering for such experiments.
With all the objections which one could have to such experiments, and which are often expressed, I would still have one******************* thing to say under war conditions; the military superior in war time is often forced to give young enthusiastic soldiers assignments demanded by the conventions of war, which will almost certainly bring about the death of these young soldiers.
If one must five such assignments, then I believe it is possible in these experiments, which I mentioned, first, if they actually have a really vital purpose and the results of which will save the lives of many other people, then I believe one has the justification to order such experiments.
Q Then, if I understand your correctly Professor, you say that under certain conditions experiments on human beings are permissible?
A Yes.
Q How do you imagine such experiments are carried out from your point of view?
A Of course, such experiments are justified only if all conditions are fulfilled, that is to say if animal experiments, experiments on one's self, and experiments on a small scale have been exhausted, then one can go over to those which were just mentioned, But, I hold the point of view that for the mass of medically necessary experiments, the experiments in the hospital must be the decisive thing, that is the drugs, etc., which are to be tested must be tested on the patients with all the conscientiousness of the doctor, but at some time the thing must be taken out of the laboratory and put into practice - vaccines and drugs equally - but the plunge must be taken in such a way that it does not bring about unavoidable harm. No doubt there will be failures, the drug will fail and it may bring about reactions on a large scale, which had not been foreseen, head sickness or something. Those are things which are always unavoidable, but they are bearable and are justified.
Q Witness, perhaps you remember Dr. Haagen's report on the observations of a newly introduced vaccine - G.H.B.?
A Yes.
Q It is in the German Document Book 12, Pages 120 to 122, it is Document No. 130 where this report of Haagen is dealt with; then Haagen's further report, which the Prosecution has submitted, Document No. 302 - Exhibit 302 of the Prosecution. You will find that on Pages 90 and 91 of the Document Book 12, Page 86 of the English translation. Haagen's report is on Page 120 and the other report is on Pages 90 and 91 of the German and No. 86 in the English.
A This first mentioned report about the vaccine was issued by Dr. Haagen in connection with typhus vaccines with the air fleet. This is an essentially well known vaccine; typhus para-typhoid A & B and cholera. This is a mixed vaccine which other nations have frequently used too. In this type the amount of the various vaccines had been changed. I don't know what the purpose of this kind of simplification was intended for. It had been tested and was to be used on the troops on a large scale. Haagen made a very detailed report and he described high temperatures and 90% fever in one unit and in another 5% to 7%. He described the various effects of this vaccine, but on the whole it was not as advantageous and did not have the effect desired. The loss in efficiency of the troops were quite high on the whole. It was the thing, which I have mentioned before, one must take the plunge with chances and one sometimes has such experiences, but those must be borne in the interest of the community as a whole and do not bring any actual harm to the persons concerned.
The second report is characteristic, because it pertains to the typhus vaccine work which Haagen was to do for us, and as the report shows various methods of vaccine production from chicken eggs. The question was mentioned, which is better and which produces the greatest quantity of vaccine; and Haagen as consulting specialist comments on this question. He comments en the assignment given, he gives the opinion of the Behring work for example on their manner cf production.
Dr. MARK: Mr. President, the defense case on this point is not yet complete, because I do not have the answer to the questionnaires sent to a former associate of Professor Haagen, Fraulein Kredel. Unfortunately, I learned of the address of this witness too late so that for this reason my letter and her answer were delayed. I ask to reserve the right to submit her answer later, together with my other Documents.
MR. McHANEY: The prosecution would like to observe, at this point, that we will undoubtedly insist that the Witness Kredel, which the defense counsel just mentioned, he called to Nurnberg to testify and we will not look with favor upon the submission of any affidavits or interrogations unless the witness is actually here on the stand. This woman, Kredel, was an associate of Dr. Haagen about whom we have heard considerable during the course of this trial and if the witness does not choose or cannot be brought to Nurnberg, then, of course, the prosecution is going to object to the admission of any statements or affidavits made by her.
THE PRESIDENT: Would it be possible that the Prosecution could be of assistance in securing the attendance of this witness?
MR. McHANEY: So far as I knew, we have never received any address on this woman. If it is furnished to the Secretary General's office, I suppose they have ways of bringing the witness here and the prosecution will be only too glad to assist in bringing her here.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, all applications from the Defense Counsel for the presenting of witnesses goes through the office of the Secretary General and they are examined there.
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, it has been requested by three or four defense counsels for the testimony of this witness.
We have always understood that she would be brought to Nurnberg. Nor, the defense counsel has just mentioned that they have mailed three or four questionnaires to her and something in the nature of an interrogatory. I would like to point out that the prosecution will most certain object to that when it is offered. We think the witness should be brought here, she worked with Haagen and no doubt she has considerable knowledge of what he did.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal, of course, understands your position, Mr. McHaney and the position of the defense counsel as well. Of course, if the attendance of the witness here is impossible, the last part of the affidavit would be eliminated, that is if interrogatories and cross-interregatories should be submitted to the witness.
BY DR. MARX:
Q Professor, I now came to the experiments on making sea water drinkable. This was the only experiment in which you participated directly and which was conducted under your responsibility; is that right?
A Yes.
Q I ask you, was this the solving of a problem, which was of great significance from a military and medical point of view?
A Yes, it was a problem of great importance. To make sea water drinkable on big ships is a question, which has long been solved, but in cases of distress at sea on a rubber raft or life boat to make drinking water out of sea water up to 1944 was an unsolved problem.
Q Now, why does this circumstance have such great importance?
A Experiences of distress at sea have shown that the problem of thirst is by far the most serious problem of distress at sea. The freezing which many shipwrecked persons suffer, is doubtless in the final insight a also very serious, but not so much psychologically. Frozen persons, lose consciousness in the course of time, while persons suffering from thirst retain their senses and suffer great pain and torture and have often even committed suicide by drowning themselves in the water. For example, it is not hunger that tortures them, but thirst, which makes their suffering unbearable.
Q Then, as medical chief, you considered it your duty to take advantage of any opportunity to examine it carefully in order to solve this question and to test it for its practical applicability?
A Yes, that was an urgent question in my sphere of duty.
Q Now on the basis of your long career in the medical service, did you not have practical experience in this field?
A Yes, in the Mediterranian. When I was fleet physician in the Mediterranian area, I often had an opportunity to see fliers, who had been rescued at sea and who were in my hospitals. It was always the same question or answer that one was given, when one talked to them about the incident, that the problem of thirst worries was always the greatest.
I remember one case in particular. It was a young pilot, who had been six days and seven nights on a raft in the Mediterranian. He was a student of Natural Science and he had taken a very critical attitude. He had observed his condition very well from his knowledge of biology. I spoke to him one or two days later in the hospital. When he was rescued, he had last all of his supplies and all of his equipment; he had merely his raft and a flare. So, he was on the water for this length of time. In the morning he collected the dew, which had formed on the raft during the night and drank it. He drank small amounts of sea water and that was all that the man drank or ate in these six days and seven nights. He was found in a pretty bad condition, but I saw him about two days after and he was quite recovered. He had been given water, he had eaten and after a few days he was released from the hospital and was given leave, but, within two days he had overcome this period of six days and seven nights without food.
Q Then it was such a consideration which occasioned you to follow up this problem?
A Yes.
Q Now, when did you learn for the first time that this problem had been solved?
A In May '44, in the first few days, I can't say exactly when, but as far as I recall it was about that time the director of my aviation medical research institute told me -- that was Professor Stuckhold --- told me that he had found a solution in his institute. He had a young associate there -- that is Dr. Schaefer here -- who had solved the question.
I was, of course, greatly interested and I asked him to prepare this so that I could look at it. Then a few days later when I happened to be in Berlin I went to the institute and Schaefer showed me his process. That is when I met Schaefer. He mixed sea water with a salt mixture and put the whole thing through a filter, and then he gave me this filtered water for drinking. I drank it, and I can only say it was fresh water. It was quite drinkable. Then I talked to Schaefer about it for two reasons.
In the first place, in order to get a kilo of water one needed 200 grams of this salt mixture. In the second place, a rather complicated filter was needed, and since in the sea emergency equipment -- and I was often interested in such matters -- we worked with a letter scale, I might say, and with a very limited area space, this large amount of salt and this complicated filter I wondered whether that wasn't too voluminous for the sea emergency kit. That was an objection which I raised first. Schaefer told me that he would improve this process so that the proportion would not be one to five as it was now, but one to ten. That was a considerable change. And he also told me that was only an emergency filter here; that it could be made differently so that it wouldn't take much space. I made a suggestion that the filter could be used in packing or something like that. That was my first acquaintance with a solution of the seawater problem.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess for a few minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. MARX:
Q Witness, when did you hear for the first time of the Berka procedure.
A I think that this was in May 1944. At that time I heard, for the first time, of the experiments, which were carried out at the Aviation Hospital in Vienna by Oberstarzt Von Serani. At the time the situation was as follows: At that time two procedures were discussed? one which we had tested in Berlin, and the other one had been tested in Vienna from the technical side, independently from the medical aspect. Toward the end of May I was informed by the Section Head of the Medical Department, by Oberstarzt Merz, that those questions should now be decided, and he requested me to attend a lecture by Becker-Freyseng, who had participated in a meeting at the technical office. The technical office was an agency in the Luftwaffe which dealt with all technical questions, from the development of airplanes to the technical details, also with the equipment of aircraft and other things which were in any way connected with it. It was not always quite easy for us to work together with the technical office because very frequently the technical office worked on questions which pertained to the medical part without complying with the medical advice. Exactly the same thing was done in this case; they had developed this Berka process, and they had tried it as purely a technical matter, by finding a drug which was primarily developed on the sugar basis, and which also contained some component to improve its taste, and which was to be added to sea water. With this drug the salt in the sea water was not chemically tried and afterwards removed from the water. This was done in the Schaefer process, but only the taste of salt was improved by adding sugar and other aromatic materials. The technical office had also initiated experiments on its own initiative. The engineer of the technical office would have developed a Berka process, and he was at the Technical High School of learning in Vienna, and he had carried out his work in the laboratory there, and he then contacted one of our physicians.
Q Please speak a little slower.
A Then he had conducted tests and he had tested this drug which he had developed at the hospital in Vienna on patients who were slightly ill. The results appeared to be rather favorable so that the opinion was reached there that the drug was ready to be introduced. In addition to this Professor Eppinger, one of our most famous internal surgeons, had moved to Vienna; and he likewise expressed himself in favor of adopting the test. That is, he expressed himself in a very cautious manner, saying that he considered as feasible the possibility of pushing the seawater through the body.
A special situation had arisen for me as medical chief. I had to consider two aspects, first of all, the purely medical aspects; and on the other hand I had to consider the possibilities of carrying out the plan of what use would the best possible process be to me, as, for example, the Schaefer procedure, without first considering the standard of research at that time, if I did not have the necessary raw materials? Our position in 1944 was mainly influenced by the fact of what was given and still available, possibilities of production. The question was could I still realize my intentions and plans at all with the raw materials available.
With the Schaefer process the following, things were needed first of all, extensive technical facilities, which required a large percentage of iron. Furthermore, for the production quite a considerable amount of silver would be needed constantly. Those were two things of which a great shortage existed for us. We new facilities were required for the work of procedure as we only needed sugar and some other materials which could easier be furnished. The technical office only saw these things from the basis of available raw material; and I can understand their point of view completely because on the one hand there was a lack of materials and, if superfluous, they still were necessary.
I now had to reach a decision. Can this product which is more favorable with regard to raw materials be road because the laboratory tests and the tests at the aviation hospital in Vienna, in spite of all other doubts, were still in favor of adoption this process.
Also, the opinion of a man like Eppinger, who was well known even outside of Germany, was favorable toward adopting this. Thus, a situation had arisen for me which could not be answered with yes or no. For example, the possibility might have existed that for several days or a longer period of time the work could be produced and then the sea rescue equipment would have been combined; and in the instructions it would have been stated that one thing is to be used for the first four or five days, and then the other process is to be adopted. In addition to this, the Berka drug could be dehydrated into the size of small cubes; and thus it was a salt mixture which could, be easily handled. All those questions had to be discussed by me when these two opinions were handed to me in May, 1944, and were subject to discussion.
Q Was any agreement reached that both drugs were to be tested alongside each other?
A No. No agreement was reached in the course of this meeting. I was absent on a more extensive trip; and in the technical office as well as on my part the decision was postponed. Becker-Freysing as my deputy then requested Eppinger to come to Berlin; and, further, some other men of the technique formed a smaller circle; and the views pro and con then were discussed. Then on the basis of the very clear attitudes of Eppinger and Hacuptner an experimental theory was considered which was to be a parallel test of the two procedures in order to compare them with each other. In a very short troop experiment these two procedures were to be tested, next to each other.
Q Witness, what did you do in order to make such an experiment on troops possible?
AAs I have previously stated I first of all turned to the medical academy. I wanted to carry out these experiments with our candidates at the academy because these young medical men were particularly suited for such experiments. They were also able to make observations on themselves and they could set clinical controls which were applied. They could carry then out themselves.
Thus they could have learned something themselves and then they could also have collected this experiment, which was important to me at the same time.
Unfortunately this could not be done because in the meantime--but I do not know when--I returned from my trip; and an order had arrived from the general staff that these candidates had to be sent to various units; that is to say, that they were put into newly activated units.
DR. MARX: May it please the Tribunal, I shall offer the statement of the witness in evidence by presenting a statement of General-Arzt Dr. Schmidt, who at that time was Commander of the Medical Academy of the Luftwaffe, and I shall submit this affidavit, together with a document book "Schroeder."
BY DR. MARX:
Q. Witness, now that this possibility did not exist any more, what further steps did you take?
A. I then turned to the hospital and in such cases I always liked use troops myself in experiments or in other tests of a technical kind, a** that was the aviation hospital at Brunswick, and it was directed by General Arzt Harringhausen. He was a man who was ready to act in all suggestions, with the testing of dressings and similar things or special methods of treatment which were to be tested, and I knew that I could find special support and assistance there. I called Harring-Hausen by telephone and asked him he could assist me. However this attempt failed also because he wanted to back to something new. These things took place towards the end of May and the beginning of June, 1944, at a time when we were evacuating hospitals, the West and transports of severely wounded patients were being transfer the homeland and when Brunswick, Halle, Greifwald were all receiving such number of severely wounded soldiers, so that we were unable to put lightly wounded patients in a sufficient number which could have been used in the experiments. There was also an additional factor, the air attacks began grow in intensity at that time so that the bringing in of the patients seven times a day into the air raid shelters and bringing them back into the w** made orderly supervision impossible and could not guarantee them any more under these conditions. Therefore, it was also impossible to carry out the experiments at Brunswick.
Q. Are you able to tell us at what time this notification was sent to General-Arzt Harring Hausen?
A. Yes, on the 1st of July. It was by accident effective on the * of July that he was promoted to General-Arzt. I had intervened in order have him promoted and on the 1st of July at noon I received notification that the promotion had been approved.
I then called him by telephone and that occasion I discussed this request with him. Otherwise, I would not remember the dates any more, it was July accidentally.
Q. May it please the Tribunal I shall present an affidavit of the General Arzt Harring Hausen to the Tribunal on that subject, which shall be contained in the Schroedor Document.
THE PRESIDENT: These affidavits may be presented with the document book is prepared BY DR. MARX:
Q. Professor, will you please now tell the Tribunal about the continuation of this matter.
A. May I add, that Beigl-Bosch also tried to lodge this series of experimental persons at his hospital at Harbis but that failed also.
Q. Witness, you have already described to us in very short sentence the situation that prevailed at the time and the situation which confront you.
A. Yes, there were the big difficulties. That was a time of the general attacks and air activity over Germany was particularly great on the part of the enemy, and on our side the last efforts were made and where we tried to obtain everything that could be obtained at all, and also the hospitals had to make room, because as a result of the air attacks hospitals were constantly lost and thus the situation was such that such a number of experimental subjects which might have been carried out formerly without trouble and we did carry out troop experiments in hospitals and they could have been billeted there without any difficulty. This simply could not be done any more within the frame of such a hospital where the bed space was about eight to nine hundred beds.
Q. Therefore, you were confronted with a certain emergency situation because those experiments had to be carried out someway.
A. It was an emergency situation because on the one had a decision was urgent and on the other hand I had such difficulties in order to find place to carry out these experiments, then the suggestion was made to me which originally came from the technical office, to carry out the experiment in a concentration camp, because it had been shown by experiment that no large scale air attacks could be expected there.
I then went to see the Reich Physician SS Grawitz, and I described the position to him and I ask him if he could help us in this respect and with regard to this matter I been told at many agencies that already on a number of occasions previously we had been aided by the Dachau concentration camp. However, I told him * of all I wanted to discuss these things with him in order to see clearly in this was feasible at all and that I did not get another disapproving state in this case if he were to declare to me beforehand that it was impossible However, Grawitz considered it quite possible but he told me the decision not up to him and that the matter would have to be referred to Himmler, an I then discussed the matter with him and I said: That I knew that we from the Wehrmacht occasionally were furnishing people to the concentration camp. They were people who had been dishonorably discharged from the Wehrmacht, and they were people who had also been soldiers and who perhaps should be given this opportunity so that they could volunteer for such an experiment for their former comrades, which in any case did not result in any damage their lives or their health. Furthermore, I told him at the time it was possible for us to obtain full aviation rations for that period of time and full hospital rations should be an attraction, that is an allotment of food which is about twice the ration of food in Germany, because the food for aviators was between 3500 and 3800 calories and at the time the food in Germany contained 1500 to 1700 calories, and this should be of some attraction to some persons, because military personnel is always grateful for increased food rations. I then briefly described the process of the experiments to him as they had been described to me but I did not go into detail for the most part because these things were things supervised by us and we had agreed on that in the preliminary discussions. Then Professor Beiglboeck, an especially experienced medical man, was to be in charge of the experiments and that this exclusion of damages to the body and the physical health should not rest with the agencies of the SS, but that the responsibility for it should rest with the man in charge of the experiment who was appointed by us.