Q Are you a French citizen?
A Yes.
Q Will you tell the TRIBUNAL what your education has been?
A I attended the MIDDLE school in SAARGEMUEND and HAGENAU. Then, in 1921, I took my first BACCALAUREATE; that is, I graduated from SECONDARY school. And then, I was a volunteer student at the PHARMACOLOGICAL Institute at the University of STRASSBOURG.
Q What work have you done since you graduated from Strasbourg; University of Strassbourg?
A. In 1928, I left the University of Strassbourg. (pause) No, in 1929 (pause) Excuse me. And then I worked at the PASTEUR Institute in PARIS. Afterwards, I went back to the University of Strassbourg. I worked at the PHARMACOLOGICAL Institute there. Since 1929, I did not work any more since my mother was ill, and then I went to the HYGENIC Institute in Strassbourg, in 1942, in February; I worked there under Prof. Haagan. In my work there, I was in charge of the seriological - bacteriological course of the students; independently, alone.
Q. And what sort of work did you do with Prof. Haagen?
A. As I said, I had the seriological-bacteriological course of the students.
Q. And how long were you associated with Prof. Haagen, in Strassbourg?
A. From the 1st of February, 1942, until the LIBERATION.
Q. Was Haagen's first name "Eugene"?
A. Yes.
Q. "Eugene Haagen"?
A. Yes
Q. Was he an officer in the LUFTWAAFE?
A. Yes, he wore the uniform of the LUFTWAAFE.
Q. Now, witness, did Haagen work in his laboratory at Strassbourg on yellow fever.
A. Yes.
Q. Did he also do some work on INFLUENZA?
A. Yes
Q. And then On Typhus?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he working in an effort to develop vaccines for those diseases?
A. Yes.
Q. During the course of your work with Haagen, do you know whether he ever performed any medical experiments on Centration Camp inmates?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell the TRIBUNAL what you know about those experiments beginning with the first?
A. The experiments, as far as I recall, extended from about May 1943 to July 1944. The first knowledge of experiments on human beings, I received in about May 1943. But first in reference to experiments with influenza vaccines produced from the lungs of mouse structure injected into inmates of the Concentration Camp SCHIRMECK. When I objected to Prof. Haagen and to his Assistant, SS Ober-Artz Dr. Helmut GREFE, that was a CRIME, Dr. GREFE told me, in the presence of Prof. Haagen, that I should calm myself, that the experiments would not be performed on inmates but on POLES. When I said (pause) objected (pause) that was the same thing, Dr. GREFE said "No, POLES are not Human beings"; and I said that was not true; and, therefore, I was told that I was to be quiet. This vaccine was later, when its harmlessness had been ascertained, used on personnel of the University of Strassbourg, who volunteered.
Q Now, witness, in connection with these experiments at the Schirmeck Concentration Camp, did you have any reason to believe that typhus experiments might also have been conducted there, as well as influenza?
A Yes, I assumed it but I was not able to get any evidence to that effect.
Q Why did you assume that, witness? What made you think that they might be experimenting with typhus at Schirmeck in 1943?
A I saw what materials were taken to Schirmeck and I said to myself, "There must be typhus experiments there, too."
Q You mean by material that you saw typhus vaccines being taken to Schirmeck?
A Yes.
Q. Now witness, you have told us about the experiments at Schirmeck. Do you know of any other experiments on concentration camp inmated by Dr. Haagen?
A Yes.
Q Will you please tell us about these?
AAt the end of 1943 I saw a letter which Professor Haagen wrote to an SS office through Professor Dr. Hirt, a professor of the Anatomical Institute at Strasbourg. In this letter, inmates of the concentration camp, I think Dauchau, were requested in order to carry out typhus experiments. A second letter came to my knowledge. In this letter Professor Dr. Haagen wrote that the human material which had been sent him was not suitable for the experiments. A part of the concentration camp inmates of, I believe Dauchau, who arrived at Schirmeck were in a condition which would not have produced the same results from typhus vaccinations. Part of them had died on the way. Thereupon Professor Dr. Haagen demanded concentration camp prisoners in the health condition of a German soldier.
Q Now, witness, I would like to interrupt you at this point and have handed to you Document Number NO-121 and ask you if this is the letter which you saw from Dr. Haagen to Dr. Hirt. If Your Honors please, this is on page 78 of the Typhus Document Book.
(Copy of document is shown to witness).
A Yes, that is the letter.
MR. MC HANEY: I offer Document Number NO-121 as Prosecution Exhibit 293 and I would like at this point to read it into the record. It is a letter to Professor Dr. Hirt, Anatomical Institute of the Reich University, Strasbourg. The letter is from Dr. Haagen to Hirt. The date does not appear on the translation; however, it is on the original. It is November 15, 1943:
"On 13 November 1943, an inspection was made of the prisoners that were furnished to me in order to determine their suitability for the tests which have been planned for the spotted fever vaccines. Of the 100 prisoners that have been selected in their former camp, 18 died during transport. Only 12 prisoners are in such a condition that they can be used for these experiments, provided they can be brought into a state of vigor. This should take about 2 to 3 months. The remaining prisoners are in such a condition that they cannot be used at all for these purposes.
"I might point out that the experiments are for the purpose of testing a new vaccine. Such experiments only lead to fruitful results when they are carried out with normally nourished subjects whose physical powers are comparable with those of the soldiers. Therefore, experiments with the present group of prisoners cannot yield usable results, particularly since a large part of them are apparently afflicted with maladies which make them unsuitable for these experiments.
A long period of rest and of good nourishment would not alter this fact.
"I request, therefore, that you send me 100 prisoners of age between 20 to 40 years, who are healthy and who are so constituted physically that they furnish comparable material."
"Heil Hitler!
"Staff Physician "Professor Dr. E. Haagen"
Q. Now, witness, will you continue to tell us what you learned about these experiments following your knowledge of this letter which I have just read?
A. After I had seen this letter I paid all the more attention to what was going on in the typhus laboratory. It was somewhat difficult for me since I was the only worker who was not vaccinated against typhus so that I would be kept away from the work. I should like to remark that I was the only Alsatian in the Institute. In spite of that I learned that typhus vaccine was being produced with Rickettsia Prowazeki and egg yolk culture. This vaccine was dried by a special method and I assume that it was dissolved in a solution against before injection. In any case, these fluids were taken along when Professor Haagen went to the Concentration Camp Natzweiler, which happened rather frequently.
Q. Did Haagen also cultivate in his laboratory at Strasbourg a virulent typhus virus?
A. Yes, on guinea pigs, in the brains of guinea pigs.
Q. And did he take these guinea pigs to Natzweiler with him?
A. Yes, they were used to infect the prisoners. As far as I know, part of the prisoners were infected and vaccinated and part of them were so-called "control persons" who were not vaccinated.
Q. Now, witness, you state that these experiments were carried out at Natzweiler. How do you know that fact?
A. I saw the list.
Q. And who had made up this list?
A. The assistant of Dr. Haagen.
Q. And what was the name of the assistant of Dr. Haagen?
A. It was a woman, Miss Crodel.
Q. And that name is spelled C-r-o-d-e-l?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see the notes prepared by Miss Crodel on the typhus experiments at Natzweiler?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you able to ascertain approximately how many men had been experimented on?
A. Yes, from 150 to 200 probably.
Q. And you were also able to determine, from these notes, that some of these experimental subjects had not been given a protective vaccine before they were injected with typhus?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you able to determine from these notes of Miss Crodel, approximately how many of these experimental subjects died as a result of the experiments?
A. Yes. Including the control persons there were about 50.
Q. Can you give us the approximate date when these experiments were carried out in the Natzweiler Camp?
A. As far as I recall, these experiments must have been especially in the spring of 1944 but it is possible that they began the end of 1943. I cannot say exactly. In any case I know that when I saw Crodel's notes it was spring or summer, I know that the sun was shining on the pages.
Q. Now, Miss Schmidt, could you tell from seeing these notes of Miss Crodel what the nationalities of the experimental subjects were?
A. I do not know much about that but I do know that gypsies were used for this purpose. As far as I know, persons of all nationalities were used. I know only of one time I heard Professor Haagen talking on the telephone and he said that a Danish doctor was to be excepted.
Q. Now, witness, can you tell us what color the Danish -
THE PRESIDENT: The Danish witness was to be accepted or excepted?
A. She was to be excepted, not to be included.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal what color this virus material had that was used by Haagen in these experiments?
A. Yellowish grey, a yellowish grey liquid, not thick, not thin.
Q. Now, witness, do you know whether reports were made by Haagen on this typhus experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know where these reports were sent?
A. I cannot say exactly, but as far as I know all letters were from Haagen to Luftwaffenarzt mitte, Berlin-Dahlem, Kronprinzenstr., 52 or 56.
Q. Do you know whether Haagen corresponded with the main doctor in the Luftwaffe by the name of Rose?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this correspondence very frequent?
A. I so not know that.
Q. Do you know whether this correspondence over concerned typhus experiments?
A. As far as I know, yes.
Q. Do you know whether Rose ever made any visits to Strassbourg?
A. Yes. I saw Dr. Rose in Strassbourg myself. I was introduced to him.
Q. How many times have you seen Rose in Strassbourg?
A. At least three or four times.
Q. Will you describe what Professor Rose looked like on the occasion that you were introduced to him?
A. What I remember most vividly was his monocle. He was a tall man with a very good appearance in his uniform, and he were a monocle.
Q. Did he wear a beard at that time?
A. No. 1372
Q. What was Professor Rose's demeanor when you met him, did he strike you as a proud and elegant man?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he say "Heil Hitler" when you were introduced to him?
A. Yes, twice, when I was introduced to him and then he shook hands with me and then he raised his arm again.
Q. Do you know what Rose's rank was at that time in the Luftwaffe?
A. I believe Professor Haagen spoke of Generalarzt or Generaloberarzt, I don't remember exactly. I don't know the German titles well enough.
Q. Now, do you know whether a general of the Luftwaffe, other than Rose ever visited Haagen in Strassbourg?
A. One day when I was in charge of the serological course I was told to keep my students quiet since a very high, -- I believe the highest physician of the Luftwaffe was expected.
Q. Do you remember approximately when was that?
A. That must have been about June 1944.
Q. Is the name Shroeder familiar to you?
A. Yes. It was the name Shroeder which I believe I heard.
Q. That is you were told that Shroeder was visiting Strassbourg on this occasion that you have mentioned?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the name of the woman who served as secretary to Haagen?
A. Yes, the secretary of the Institute.
Q. Who was it that served as personal secretary to Officer Haagen in Strassbourg, do you know that?
A. Haagen had, one might say, two secretaries, Miss Eyer, who was secretary of the Institute, and Miss Crodel.
Q. Did you know Miss Eyer?
A. Yes, very well.
Q. Did she ever tell you that Haagen corresponded with Rostock?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what that correspondence concerned?
A. No.
Q. Going back to the visit of Rose to Strassbourg can you fix the dates of those visits, approximately?
A. It must have been 1943 or 1944. I believe the first visit was in the summer of 1943; before the 31st of July.
I was in the classroom to see whether everything was ready for the course, when I was introduced to Professor Rose.
Q. And what about the second visit, could that have been in 1944, the second and third visit?
A. I believe so.
Q. Is the name Professor Bickenbach familiar to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he connected with the University of Strassbourg?
A. Yes. He was at the internal section of the University of Strassbourg and was at the Research Institute, as far as I recall he was a professor there.
Q. And do you know anything concerning his activities at Strassbourg, what research work he was connected with?
A. Yes, it was said that Professor Bickenbach was working on gas experiments.
Q. Do you know where these experiments were being conducted by him?
A. I cannot say. I only know that he had a laboratory in the old fortification of Strassbourg.
Q. Did you ever hear that Bickenbach went to Natzweiler and conducted some gas experiments there?
A. I know nothing about that.
Q. Is the name August Hirt familiar to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he connected with the anatomic institute at Strassbourg?
A. He was the professor of the Anatomical Institute.
Q. What was the name of one of his assistants; did he have an assistant who wore the uniform of a Luftwaffe officer?
A. I do not remember that. I remember the name, but whether that was the one in the Luftwaffe or not, I don't know anymore.
Q. Do you know the name Wimmer?
A. A Dr. Wimmer?
Q. And he was an assistant to Professor Hirt?
A. As far as I know, yes.
Q. Did you ever hear or do you know anything about any of the gas experiments conducted by Hirt and Wimmer?
A. About what, please?
Q. About the gas experiments conducted by Hirt or Wimmer?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you know about those experiments, if anything?
A. I do not know much. It was only said that Professor Hirt--Wimmer-I don't know that. But that Professor Hirt was conducting gas experiments in Natzweiler and it was also said that he was undertaking autopsies of people who were not dead yet.
Q. Did you hear what type of gas that they were experimenting with at Natzweiler?
A. No.
Q. You never heard the name of Lost gas mentioned?
A. No.
Q. Were Dr. Hirt and Dr. Haagen rather close friends?
A. Yes, I think so.
MR. MC HANEY: I have no further questions at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: At this time the Tribunal will recess until 1:30 o'clock.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 9 January 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. MC HANEY: The Prosecution has no further questions to put to the witness at this time. If there is any cross examination, they can proceed.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any cross examination of this witness by defense counsel?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. HANS PRIBILLA (Defense counsel for Paul Rostock):
Q. Witness, when asked by the Prosecution, you spoke about Professor Haagen's secretary, Dr. Olga Eier, during the last period; did you speak with or see Dr. Eier?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me Dr. Eier's address or where she is working now?
A. Yes. Clinical Dermatologist, Strassbourg, Bas-Rhein.
Q. Would you please spell the latter?
A. B-a-s-R-h-e-i-n.
Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
BY DR. MARX (Defense counsel for Professor Schroeder and Dr. Becker-Freyseng):
Q. Witness, you were speaking before about a visit of the medical chief of the Luftwaffe at the institute of Professor Haagen?
A. Yes.
Q. You said that this visit took place in June of 1944?
A. According to my recollection, yes.
Q. And there is a possibility that this visit took place on May 22nd or 23rd, 1944?
A. That is possible, too.
Q. Did you see Professor Schroeder personally, or were you merely told he was there?
A. I only saw his overcoat, which had large white epaulets on it and I was told we were concerned with the highest chief of the hygiene system of the air force. I believe that I can remember that the name Schroeder was mentioned
Q. Do you know whether the medical chief was accompanied by an adjutant?
A. I believe so.
Q. How long, according to your recollection, did this visit last?
A. At least two hours, possibly three.
Q. Was Professor Schroeder along together with Professor Haagen?
A. Of that I have no knowledge.
Q. Now, I should like to ask you with reference to the experiments on human beings, experiments with typhus. Were they already finished in the year 1943?
A. No, in the year 1943 they had not been completed. They continued until July of 1944.
Q. How do you know this date; how do you know that so exactly?
A. I have seen Professor Haagen depart from Natzweiler so often with his entire material. In August 1944 Professor Haagen left Strassbourg together with his experiments. That is how I can state for certain that the date was in July of 1944.
Q. According to your knowledge were experiments on human beings conducted with reference to epidemic jaundice?
A. No, no, I know nothing about it.
Q. Was he exclusively concerned with animal experiments?
A. As far as I know, we were only concerned with animal experiments and microscopic experiments.
Q. So I understood you perfectly with reference to Hepatitis Endemica?
A. Yes.
Q. So I understood you correctly with reference to that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know if there was a certain Standarten Captain Dr. Thomen after June of 1944 in that institute?
A. Yes, he was in the institute for two days.
Q. Do you know, or is it known to you, whether in order to execute these experiments on human beings an order of the agency of the Luftwaffe was in existance?
A. As far as I know, yes.
Q. Well, my question is based on the fact that these experiments were supposed to be carried out by an order of a different agency; on the order of the Reichs Research Counsel or some such agency. Did you see any letters with any headings to that effect; I mean official headings, it may have been some from the Reichs Research Counsel or from Goerring or from the Reichs Marshal or some such agency?
A. I have seen such letterheads very frequently but what was contained in the letters I have no knowledge of.
A. Yes, but did you see any letterheads with the titles Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe or Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe or Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe?
A. That is something I could not swear to, but I do believe that I did.
Q. Ever since 1941, you were active there. Did you not say that this morning?
A. Since 1942; February 1, 1942.
Q. Do you know anything about the cooperation of Professor Haagen with Professors Genzken, Buchner, Hubert or Kalk in connection with hepatitis?
A. No.
Q. Or on any other questions?
A. No, not at all.
Q. Do these names mean anything to you?
A. No.
Q. Genzken, Buchner, Hubert, Kalk?
A. No, nothing.
Q. You read nothing about them?
A. No, nothing.
Q. Where exactly did Professor Haagen work in the institute; in what institute did he work in the University of Strassbourg?
A. He was professor at the Hygienic Institute at Strassbourg.
Q. Professor at the Hygienic Institute at Strassbourg?
A. That is correct.
Q. Extraordinary. At the University of Strassbourg, at the Medical Institute, there was another department called Research, was there not?
A. Yes; Research.
Q. Under whom was this Research Department; Professor Bueckenbach?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was the superior of Professor Buckenbach; was it DeKamp?
A. That is something I do not know; I do not know how this was arranged.
Q. I have no further questions.
BY DR. HEINZ FRITZ (Counsel for Professor Rose):
Q. Witness, this morning you testified that according to your recollection Professor Rose was in Strassbourg on three or four occasions?
A. Yes.
Q. Professor Rose tells that he was there only twice and that was once at the time mentioned by you in 1943 and once in the year 1944. Is it possible that this statement of Professor Rose is correct?
A. In my opinion, I have seen Professor Rose on three occasions, but I would not swear to it.
Q. Can you tell me anything with reference to the visit of Professor Rose in the summer of 1944 and can you give me an exact statement as to the time?
A. No, no, I cannot do that.
Q. Another subject; do you know of the typhus vaccines of the Pasteur Casablanca and Lacray of the Institute in Tulln?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that these vaccines originated from living weakened virus?
A. Yes and I also know that they were not used because they were to dangerous.
Q. Do you knoW, witness, that Haagen endeavored to develop this sort of Blau, since the vaccines of that organ were not considered effective?
A. In his work Haagen based himself just as much on French work just as he did American work, according to Cox.
Q. Do you know that he wanted to develop a vaccine for typhus as against pox and yellow fever?
A. I watched him read articles, French articles, about these vaccines. I once discussed the question with him very briefly. I know that he was consulting these works for his experiments, but to what extent he was basing himself upon them, that is something I do not know.
Q Do you know that the main problem with vaccines of Blau and Legren was regarding the way the man reacted to it, the reaction of human beings to these vaccines?
A I don't understand your question quite.
Q I was speaking before of vaccine of living weakened virus, and I was asking you whether, when dealing with the research of this vaccine, the main problem consisted in the reaction and vulnerability of the human being?
A The reaction.
Q Another subject; can you tell me, Witness, when the Hygiene Institute of the University of Strasbourg was damaged by bombs?
A On the 25th of September, 1944.
Q Do you know how many dead there were at that occasion?
A Four dead.
Q Can you still remember the names of the dead?
A Yes.
Q Go ahead.
A Dr. Eckstein, the etiologist of the Institute; Paul Schultz, the laboratory clerk or servant; a switchboard operator whose name I cannot remember; and Mr. Maier, the economist of the Institute.
Q How far was the Hygiene Institute after this damage able to continue to work?
A The laboratories were transferred to the medical clinic.
Q And when did the evacuation of the valuable instruments of this Institute start?
A That must have been as early as August when it started.
Q I didn't quite understand your reply.
A I said in August, '44.
DR. FRITZ: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further cross examination of this witness by any of the defense counsel?
(No reply)
MR. McHANEY: No further direct examination, your Honors.
THE PRESIDENT: Prosecution will proceed. Witness is excused.
(Witness excused)
MR. HARDY: The Tribunal has noticed that the presentation of the typhus experiments has been divided into two sections; that is, two experiments conducted at the Buchenwald Concentration Camp and the experiments conducted at the Natzweiler Concentration Camp. The indictment so stated.
At this time we will present the documentary evidence concerning the activities in connection with the typhus experiments by Dr. Haagen and his colleagues at Strasbourg and Natzweiler. I request the Tribunal to turn to page 70 of the document book where we find Document NO-370 which will be offered provisionally as Prosecution Exhibit Number 294. This is another affidavit of Rudolf Brandt which I will now read.
"I, Rudolf Emil Hermann Brandt, being duly sworn, depose and state:
"1. I am the same Rudolf Brandt who has heretofore sworn to an affidavit on the 30th day of August 1946 concerning low pressure experiments preformed on involuntary human beings in the Dachau Concentration Camp and to certain other affidavits concerning medical experiments on involuntary human beings.
"2. For the same reasons set forth in paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 of my affidavit of 30 August 1946, I am able to make this statement concerning experiments performed on human beings.
"Experiments with spotted fever vaccines at the Natzweiler Concentration Camp "3. In the fall of 1943, Dr. Eugen Haagen, Oberstabsarzt and consultant in hygiene for the Luftwaffe and Professor at the University of Strasbourg, requested through Wolfram Sievers of the 'Ahnenerbe' that 100 concentration camp prisoners be made available to him for experimentation on the effectiveness of spotted fever vaccines.
Obergruppenfuehrer Oswald Pohl, Chief of the WVHA, had requested the number of prisoners sent to the Natzweiler Concentration Camp and the experiments were conducted by Dr. Haagen there.
"4. Again in the Summer of 1944, Haagen obtained 200 additional prisoners for the spotted fever experiments. In each case it was specifically required that the experimental subjects be in a physical condition comparable to members of the Armed Forces. This was because the vaccines were being developed primarily for the Armed Forces. Haagen was woriking under the auspices of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe.
"5. I had nothing to do with the physical selection of the prisoners used in these experiments. That was handled through Amtsgruppe D of the WVHA, which had administrative control of all concentration camps. However, I do know that experimental subjects were simply picked out and assigned for experimentation. They were not advised of the danger of the experiments, nor could they refuse to go.
"6. I am not familiar with the technical details of the experiments but I know that they were carried out. Moreover, I am sure that some of the prisoners died as a result of the experiments. As a matter of fact, the experimental persons were at times not in good physical condition as requested and some of them even died before the experiments began.
"7. To the best of my recollection, Haagen also experimented on human beings at Natzweiler with other diseases such as yellow fever, influenza, epidemic jaundice, nephritis virus and cholera.