Tho initiation for those experiments originated partly from aerial accident work and from the experience which I gained as a result of investigation of air accidents which had not as yet been explained. Those were air accidents on the basis of altitude sickness, and it was they that interested mo mostly. I soon began to see the fight against highaltitude sickness and death as my special assignment. Tho first phase of my activity in the combat of accidonts was concluded in the spring of 1940 with the report which was already mentioned by Dr. Ruff regarding high-altitude sickness and high-altitude death. I specialized in tho field of high altitude research, and carried out many low pressure experiments concerning flying ability in that connection.
Q What was your task within the framework of high altitude research?
A There was a number of activities going on in order to improve high altitude firmness with pharmacological means regarding the effect of continued exposure to respiration oxygen, concerning carbon dioxide content, the effectiveness of pervitin, investigations of parachute descending from high altitudes, explosive decompression experiments in the question of high altitude flying in the pressure chamber, airplanes, and many similar matters.
Q Were there any series of experiments in your institutions carried out by you at that time, and who at that time was in charge of your experiments and whom did you use as experimental subjects?
A We had a series of experiments in all these research assignments. We ourselves were the experimental subjects. Sometimes we had experimental subjects coming from our collaborators in our own institutes, and sometimes from other branches of the DVL. Usually I myself was in charge of these experiments, except in cases when I myself was the experimental subject.
Q Who, for the first time suggested to you that low pressure chamber experiments could be carried out at Dachau?
A In December 1941, after Weltz' visit to Ruff, Ruff called me into his room and told me about his conversation with Weltz. He asked me whether I was prepared to work under these conditions and participate in experiments for the purpose of rescue from high altitudes.
Q You are saying under these conditions, what conditions were you speaking of?
A These were the conditions which Dr. Weltz mentioned to Dr. Ruff on the occasion of his visit. The experiments were to be performed on sentenced criminals who volunteered for these experiments.
Q Was the concept "criminal" discussed at that time already, and what was to be understood by it?
A One meant criminals who had been sentenced by proper courts.
Q Who determined the subject which was to be investigated at Dachau?
A The subject had already been determined as a result of our preceding work, and as a result of the planned experiments which were to be continued. Since this subject, namely the rescue of persons from high altitude was particularly acute, at that time Ruff asked me whether I was prepared to participate in these experiments, working on these questions.
Q In that case am I correct in assuming that already before the Dachau experiments had been carried out in a similar way, and that other experiments were to be continued after the Dachau experiments?
A Yes.
Q That the Dachau experiments merely constituted an excerpt from a large scale experimental plan?
A Yes, that is true.
Q What were your reasons to accept Dachau?
A One can only explain that decision considering the situation as it prevailed at that time. It was the winter of 1941-1942 and the collapse of the Eastern front was already pending because of the unexpected severity of that winter. The emergency situation of the soldiers at the front became very clear also at home for the first time. At that time woolen things were collected for the Front and one could imagine what actually was happening at the Front if one had to resort to such means. The pilots of the medical planes told us what actually was happening. We were also told about conditions by pilots of the DVL who had been committed at the Eastern Front for the purpose of this emergency situation. In addition a new opponent had arisen, the United States of America, and we especially in aviation research were clearer about the importance of that new opponent than many others, we know what was being built in the United States and what the potentialities were. In America Boeing B-17 planes were flying with exhaust turbines at high altitudes, the Thunderbolt planes were being used, and we were able to see that the air war would have to embark on an entirely new form, especially regarding high altitudes and numerical employment.
We could only make a stand if we did everything to develop our fighters. Here we were particularly concerned with the ME 163 from which we expected considerable success. The increase of flying speed was of extreme importance, also for civilian aviation, and in this situation development, of course, became particularly acute, and our experiments were necessary for the purpose of this development. When Dr. Ruff approached me with that question I didn't consider it very long as to whether I was strong enough or whether I would rather stay in Berlin where I had my family and a comfortable place to work. When I was released to do aviation research work I never thought that this would mean a comfortable position, but I participated in a great number of experiments which were neither pleasant nor non-dangerous.
Q Didn't you have any moral or medical ethical misgivings in carrying out these experiments?
A I had no great moral misgivings. Naturally, I thought about the entire matter thoroughly, but the result of these deliberations was the following: experiments on human beings was an everyday affair with us. In the course of my activity I am sure I carried out about a thousand self experiments, and just as many experiments on other people who belonged to the circle of our Institute. All these people volunteered as experimental subjects, but that was done within the framework of the research of our Institute. I participate in experiments for Ruff and my own work, and I am sure that if any stranger would have asked me to do that I am sure I would not have consented. Within the framework of the activity of the Institute all the co-workers were glad to participate, though we gained no advantages whatsoever from that work. If I was now approached with the question whether I was going to use sentenced criminals who volunteered for the purpose of experiments which were to serve the rescue of pilots, and knowing that if they survived these experiments these criminals would receive a pardon I think it is quite understandable that although having to overcome certain personal inhibitions I had no principle moral misgivings.
In addition I knew of experiments being performed on inmates in the various countries, and the books of Paul de Kruif, which I possessed, gave me this knowledge.
Although Professor De Kruif, as I have learned here from Professor Alexander, supposedly is not in an unobjectionable position in America and sometimes allegedly does not quite tell the truth in his publications, it is not so decisive what he reports about the individual experiments performed by Grassi or other people. It is much more important to consider the way in which he is reporting these experiments; that he is glorifying these courageous research workers as heroes; that his books were a great success in America and in many other countries; that the German editions were printed in Zurich, the land of the Red Cross; that I never heard or read of an opinion which rejected the books or the experiments which are described therein.
As I know now, I was only aware of an infinitely small part of human experiments carried on abroad. There was yet another condition which strengthened me in my decision. At that time concentration camp inmates who volunteered were committed for the clearing of dud bombs and, as far as I know, were pardoned after having cleared some twenty such dud bombs. I think that compared to that the low pressure chamber experiments seemed to me to be much more harmless and incurred much less danger.
In addition, of course, I put the question whether I personally in the same position would have placed myself at the disposal for such experiments and I, of course, answered that question in the affirmative, for that in effect was what I did.
Q. Did it not repel you at that time working in a concentration camp?
A. It will always be difficult to make it clear to people that hardly one person knew in Germany anything about the concentration camps. According to name, I knew of Dachau and, being a resident of Berlin, I knew of Oranienburg. I never saw a camp personally up to that time. I had heard that professional criminals and political inmates were incarcerated in concentration camps. I had heard nothing of prisoners of war or foreigners who were in concentration camps. In the same way I had never heard anything of the Jewish extermination program or the mass deportation of Jews into concentration camps, which allegedly already started in the year of 1938.
When in the year of 1940 or 1941 the Jews were deported from Berlin, we were told that they were sent to Theresienstadt and from there went to the various cities of the general government in Poland.
Q. When did you take the first steps in order to carry through the experiments?
A. The first step was my journey to Munich to Weltz's institute, where Ruff accompanied me. That was in January of 1942.
Q. A conference with Weltz was the purpose of the journey, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that conference take place in January of 1942?
A. Yes, we went there for the purpose of this experiment.
Q. Well, who was present at that time?
A. Professor Weltz, Dr. Rascher, Dr. Ruff, and I.
Q. Had you known Dr. Rascher before that conference.
A. No.
Q. Had you known before the conference took place that Dr. Rascher would be present?
A. No, I am sure that I did not know the name.
Q. Were you introduced to Rascher?
A. Yes, he was introduced to me as an Oberarzt of the Luftwaffe.
Q. Was a fifth man present during that conference or at least present part of the time?
A. Yes, I remember that at the beginning Dr. Lutz was present. I think he was already there before the beginning of the conference.
Q. What in detail was discussed during that conference?
A. I think that Dr. Ruff already told about that conference in essence. The question of the experimental subjects was discussed once more. Dr. Rascher had a letter from Himmler which give him authority to carry out the experiments, which he produced.
It was decided to carry out the experiments for the purpose of rescuing from high altitude, using the low pressure chamber at Dachau. At the end of the conference we arranged to meet again the next day at the Reichsfuehrer's office at Munich, where a number of formal questions had yet to be settled.
Q. Wasn't it discussed that one would have to establish contact with the commander of the camp at Dachau?
A. I don't know whether Rascher had already suggested that at that time. The first step was the conference at the Reichsfuehrer's office at Munich and I think that there the decision was made to establish a conference with the commander at Dachau.
Q. During that conference did Rascher wear the uniform of an SS officer or a Luftwaffe doctor?
A. No, he had the uniform of an Oberarzt, a lieutenant of the Luftwaffe.
Q. Was he introduced to you as an officer of the Luftwaffe or an officer of the SS?
A. No, he was introduced to me as an officer of the Luftwaffe.
Q. Where did the conference take place, at the Reichsfuehrer SS?
A. On the next day, during that conference, we made the acquaintance of Schnitzler, the Munich adjutant of Himmler, who was also informed about the experiments. It was then decided to go out to Dachau by car in order to discuss the necessary matters with the commander there.
Q. Was it arranged that Rascher was to carry out the experiments?
A. Yes, that was arranged.
Q. Were you convinced that Rascher was sufficiently qualified to carry out these experiments?
A. Yes, naturally.
Q. Did you confer with him, or why were you of that opinion?
A. During that conference at Weltz's office we naturally discussed many questions. There was a lot of professional talk and Rascher made a very skillful impression. He told about his work at Schongau, where he was working at an ack-ack school, where he had prepared a distance guage for the purpose of ack-ack work.
In addition, he seemed to have a good general medical education. I think he had worked in Munich for three or four years doing surgical work and he generally made a skillful impression.
Q. When did you actually go to Dachau?
A. We went there the next day, starting from the Reichsfuehrer's office.
Q. What was discussed with the camp commander at Dachau?
A. Schnitzler, the Munich adjutant, went out with us and there were the four of us and the camp commander was also present during that conference. During that conference all the basical questions of the practical execution were settled. First, the bringing of the pressure chamber to Dachau, its installation in the camp, further the selection of the experimental subjects. The camp commander had already been informed about it by Schnitzler.
Q. Would you please once more repeat what had been arranged with the camp commander concerning that point?
A. Basically the fact that the experimental subjects were to be sentenced criminals who volunteered for that purpose had been determined and was merely confirmed during that conference. We made certain demands regarding the caliber of the experimental subjects. They had to be of a certain age, ranging from twenty-five to thirty-five years; they had to be in good physical condition, had to receive additional rations in order that a good comparison could be drawn to the personnel of the Luftwaffe regarding nourishment and physical condition. In addition, it was determined they were not to work during the time of the experiments. The camp commander then said that Rascher was to select the suitable people.
Q. Did the camp commander state on that occasion that in any way he had tried to bring about a voluntary reporting of the inmates for that purpose?
A. Yes, he had no doubt whatsoever, that under these conditions a large number of persons would report, once he made the facts know to them. Rascher was then to select the suitable people from that crowd.
Q. I am sure that the manner in which the camp commander was to select the people was not discussed in detail, if I understand you correctly? I mean whether they were to be gathered by way of a roll call or in any other way?
A. I don't know how it was done, whether posters were put up or whether they were gathered by way of roll call. At any rate that was not discussed at the time.
Q. Was it then already determined that Rascher alone would deal with the camp commander in the matter of the experimental subjects or were you also authorized to interfere in these matters, was it then already determined whether Rascher alone was to select the experimental subjects or were you to have a vote too?
A. That, of course, was left to Rascher, because he had the corresponding authorization from Himmler.
Q. Did Rascher produce that authorization during a conference, during the preceding conference?
A. Yes, I already said it happened during the time we spoke with Weltz. He showed us Himmler's letter.
Q. Do you still remember the contents of that letter?
A. Yes, it said in the letter that the basic authorization for the execution of the high altitude experiments was maintained and that such experiments could be carried out in the concentration camp Dachau. It further said that criminals who had volunteered were to be used and that pardon would be granted to these men after the conclusion of the experimental series.
Q. Did you travel back to Berlin with Dr. Ruff after these conferences?
A. Yes, after this conference we went to Berlin.
Q. Certain preparations had to be made for the beginning of the experiments, who was entrusted with this prepatory work?
A. Preparations were divided. Dr. Ruff was to deal with the transport of the mobile pressure chamber. Then Rascher was to make all necessary preparations in Dachau, selecting the experimental subjects and examining them, and I was to gather the scientific material, as far as it was not yet available, and to work out an experimental program, the basis of which already existed?
Q. Before you returned to Berlin, the decision had already been made that such experiments were to be carried through, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you, as the representative of your Institute at Adlershof, already previously collaborated with a representative of the Weltz Institute?
A. No, not all frequently, only at one time in January, 1941, when dealing with a mobile low pressure chamber, the witness Lutz has testified about that here, and on that occasion we collaborated with a representative of the Weltz Institute. This was done when the mobile pressure chamber was committed in the campaign of France in order to carry out special experiments on the fighter squadrons. Not only Weltz' institute participated there, but there was a collaboration of many agencies.
Q. Who did participate?
A. There was one physician of the German Experimental Institute for Glider Flying, who was a civilian, who participated; one came from Rechlin, who was an Oberarzt of the Luftwaffe, and then there was Dr. Lutz from the Munich Institute, who was also, I think, an Oberarzt of the Luftwaffe, and finally two or three physicians, medical officers of Air Fleet No. 3.
Q. Who was in charge of the chamber at that time?
A. This chamber was supervised by the medical inspectorate and when it was in France it was under the charge of Air Fleet No. 3. They were caring for fuel, travel orders, etc.
Within our detail of physicians, Dr. Doering was entrusted with leadership. He had come from the E Agency at Rechling.
Q. Did you know the individual physicians of that team at that time?
A. I knew Dr. Doering personally very well. I only passably knew the physician who came from the Research Institute for Glider Flying and I didn't at all know Dr. Lutz. I only knew he had come from the Institute Weltz and I didn't know any of the others.
Q. Was the situation approximately the same when using the chamber at Dachau?
A. To what extent it was the same officially I cannot judge. However, I do think it was rather similar. The chamber had been furnished by the medical inspectorate and I went there as a representative of the Ruff Institute while Rascher went there as a member of the Weltz Institute. We all went there for the purpose of collaboration in order to carry out experiments for the purpose of rescue from high altitudes.
Q. Let us revert to the Dachau experiments. How long did you stay in Berlin, after having returned from Dachau to Berlin?
A. I stayed there for a number of weeks, at least during the time it took for the chamber to leave Berlin and go to Munich, that was in the beginning of February.
Q. And after that you returned to Munich, did you?
A. Yes, after the chamber had left Berlin I went after it by rail, one or two days later, in order to carry out the necessary technical preparations of the chamber at Dachau with Rascher.
Q. Did you arrive in Dachau before the chamber or did the chamber arrive before you?
A. The chamber was already there. As soon as I arrived at Munich I telephoned the Weltz Institute to find out whether the number had arrived, and I then learned it was already at Dachau.
I then telephoned Rascher and went out there together with him.
Q When did the experiments in Dachau start?
A I remember that they actually started on the 22nd or 23rd of February, because I can still recall, as the witness Neff testified here, that a birthday table, so to speak, had been prepared for him. Subsequently, a number of difficulties arose concerning Rascher's being detailed there. The experiments after a day or two were interrupted and Rascher went to Schongau, whereas I returned to Berlin.
Q Before the experiments started, did you have a clearly defined program which was to cover the extent of the experiments?
A Yes, I have already said that the initiation for this experimental series which was to extend over a number of years originated with the commitment of the mobile pressure chambers in France. There we discussed the question of parachute descent from high altitude with tho fighter pilots employed there; and we had determined that the pilots were not sure about this because they were neither practical nor theoretical experienced on land in these questions. These experiences gained as a result of the conversations we held with the fighter pilots constituted the initiation to start these experiments.
In the year of 1941 I performed experiments with parachute descents from high altitudes at the DVL, which extended to 12 kilometers. This was the first important practical question because people were already flying at that height. At that time, however, the flying altitude was already being increased. Motors had been built which could increase the altitude of planes up to 16000 meters. Junker, Arado, Henschel and many other airplane manufacturers, were already building pressure cabins; and the ME-163, which I have already mentioned, and which was the first airplane with an independent rocket propulsion, was already being tested.
The air pressure is artificially maintained in pressure cabins by compression apparatus; in other words, there is always a stronger pressure in the pressure cabin than in the atmosphere which surrounds it. For planes employed at the front a pressure corresponding to eight kilometers had been provided. There was the problem of how the crew could overcome an explosive decompression caused by a leak in the pressure cabin; and this was a question which had already been dealt with by a number of institutes, who concerned themselves with explosive decompression questions. We also had carried out explosive decompression experiments up to seventeen kilometers in height.
It may perhaps be a proof a to how the entire problem was pending at that time that we had built in explosive decompression chambers into the mobile low pressure chambers, because we had in ended to lecture the troops about explosive decompression questions. The problem which had been entirely left aside, however, was the question of how the air crew could be saved in the case of an accident occurring in high altitudes, after the crew had survived the explosive decompression: How and with what means can I bring the crew back to earth? - A number of questions had come up: Is it sufficient to use a parachute with oxygen apparatus? Up to what altitudes would it be sufficient? Would the pilots have to drop for some time with a parachute not unfolded? Through what altitudes would they have to fall? Do they wake up by themselves from altitude sickness or not? Are they alert enough afterwards to pull the lever? In what altitude will they awaken?
Then in addition the question came up of what effect cold would have; and in the case of particularly high altitudes the question was added: Can one in such altitudes just by using one's own body leave, the plane or does high altitude sickness appear so quickly that certain apparatus would have to be provided which would get the crew out of the plane without their having to act on their own initiative? Then the question came up of how soon after the explosive decompression the altitude sickness arises; how much time is at one's disposal in order to start rescue measures? These were about the most important questions which moved us and which had to be clarified during these experiments.
Q. Was it your intention to carry out further experiments in Dachau if the opportunity was available?
A No. By putting these questions the program had been clearly defined. On the other hand, the program was large enough and a sufficient number of questions had to be clarified. I made the necessary preparations, We knew that from a technical point of view ten seconds would be at our disposal for leaving the airplane.
DR. VORWERK: Mr. President, I have just learned that a figure had not been mentioned which the witness has stated. He said that at that time motors had been built by a number of manufacturers which were in a position to rise up to 16,000 meters in height. This figure apparently had not been mentioned.
Q Witness, what was Rascher's position in Dachau?
A The position in itself had been clarified by the basical condition raised by Himmler that Rascher had received authorization and at the same time, owing to the condition, that Rascher would have to participate in the experiments, that any execution of the experiments without him was impossible.
Q What leads you to assume that? What leads you to assume that it would have been impossible to carry out these experiments without the participation of Rascher?
A That can be seen from a letter written by Brandt to Sievers, written the 21st of March 1942, Document 1581-a (PS), Exhibit 48 in Document Book II.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. VORWERK:
Q. Dr. Romberg, before we go on where we stopped, I should like to ask you to speak about the necessity of these experiments and to explain what the significance of this machine was that could fly at an altitude of 16 kilometers.
A. I said that motors for air planes were being built at this time which could reach an altitude of 16 kilometers. That is, their maximum achievement was 16 kilometers. The actual ceiling would be two or three kilometers higher than that.
Q. Do you mean to say that this machine would, in practice, be able to reach an altitude of 18 or 19 kilometers.
A. Yes, that would be the highest altitude which it could reach at all. At 16 kilometers it could fly with its entire motor power.
Q. What do you mean by full pressure altitude?
A. That is a very technical expression connected with the compressors. At that altitude, the motors work just as a motor not built especially for high altitude works on the ground, artificial pressure is created which corresponds to sea level pressure. Above this altitude the efficiency of the machine sinks rapidly.
Q. I believe that this explains that point sufficiently.
Now, we'll go back to the point of Rascher's position in the experiment. You were just beginning to speak of this question before the recess.
A. I said that, without Rascher, it would never have been intended to carry out the experiments and it never would have been possible. That arose from Himmler's original assignment. Practical proof of this is the fact that the experiments were stopped immediately when there were difficulties with Rascher's assignment. This is proved by the letter from Mrs. Rascher to the Reichsfuehrer SS, the 24th of February 1942, Document NO-263, Exhibit 47.
In this letter, Mrs. Rascher writes that there were difficulties of command and that the experiments were stopped; that Rascher has gone back to Schongau. That was the time when I went back to Berlin and later, when the experiments were actually carried out, Rascher had expressly forbidden me to perform experiments in Dachau without his permission or his presence, so that I never did perform any experiments without Rascher. I always waited until he was there. On the days when he was in Schnogau, no experiments were performed. Generally, I did not even go to the experimental station -perhaps to write - but certainly never to carry out experiments. This rule, although, of course, it often delayed the work, seemed justified to me because Rascher had the permission from Himmler to perform these experiments and was responsible to him for the experimental subjects. Also, I myself was under the authority of the camp at Dachau which seriously restricted my independence. For example, my freedom of movement or talking to prisoners, similar things. Rascher himself, on the other hand, on the basis of his powers which he had received from Himmler and on the basis of a special pass, had a very free position. The camp of Dachau was under Himmler's authority. That is shown, for example, by the letter from Himmler to Milch, Document 1617 PS of November, 1942, Exhibit 77. In this letter, Himmler spoke of Holzloehner's conduct and adds that the camp Dachau is under his orders, and Holzloehner would have to submit. Under these conditions, Rascher had taken the low pressure chamber from Munich and set it up.
Q Who took care of the maintenance during the experiments, that is who worked on the chamber, maintained it?
A There was not a great deal of maintainance work necessary for examply loading the batteries or supplying the oxygen, that was taken care of by Rascher and it was probably paid for by the camp
Q Was Rascher responsible to you for that?
A No, Rascher was not responsible to me at all. He was responsible to the medical inspectorate because the chamber belonged to them.
Q Did you have an opportunity to give Rascher any orders or prohibition or instructions?
A No, that can no doubt be seen from what I have already said. I could not give him any orders. I certainly could not forbid him to do anything only for the progress of these experiments for rescue from high altitude I had a certain advisory right as is customary for two scientists who are working together on the same task, and when one of the two has greater knowledge pertinent to the specific task.
Q You said the experiments began on February 22 or February 23, was that the time when you saw the experimental subjects for the first time?
A Yes. On that day I went out to Dachau for the first time together with Rascher, and met the experimental subjects for the first time.
Q About how many were there?
A There were 10 or 12.
Q Could it have been five?
A Five? No, there were certainly more than that.