Q In other words, you were not Grawitz's staff chief nor a person who knew all about Grawitz's work nor were you his personal advisor?
A No, I was neither staff chief nor the collaborator who knew exactly what was going on. The chief of staff is a man who stands intermediary between the chief and the other offices who represents the chief, and so far as consultation or advice is concerned, I must say that Grawitz himself was a professor of internal medicine and had no need of advice, and, moreover, this was not consonant with his nature to let subordinates advise him.
Q Did your activity in the Rasse und Siedlungs Main Office have any relation to the criminal activities of the SS?
A The activities of the Main Race and Settlement Office concerned only investigating the hereditary health and fitness of members of the SS themselves. There were no connections with people who were not SS members. In other words, it was a purely internal SS matter.
Q Did the Main Race and Settlement Office, in your opinion, have anything to do with criminal activities? Were any measures of extermination planned there or carried out?
A I did not know anything whatsoever about such things. The Main Race and Settlement Office was founded in 1932 on Darre's initiative, and its aim was to move or to persuade the population in the big cities to move to the country. This was to be done through the Settlement Office so far as the SS was concerned, and, moreover, SS members and their wives were to be submitted to a certain racial selection. That was to be the activity of the Race Office. In the course of years the socalled "Sippen-Amt" developed. This was for all practical pur poses the marriage office of the SS, and it developed to be the largest office in the whole organization.
The activities of the Settlement Office and the Race Office remained very slight. To be sure, the Settlement Office did set up a few SS settlements, but this was limited to a few undertakings, I assume because financial matters played a role. Later the Settlement Office, and particularly in the War, concerned itself only with the development of farmers' implements and farmers' settlement. I believe it consisted only of six or eight persons, and the Race Office simply concerned itself with the training of persons who were to test the racial qualifications of members of the SS when they came up for testing. I know of no other activities of the Race and Settlement Office.
DR. BOEHM: I should like to conclude my interrogation of the witness with this and should now like to submit a few documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any questions to be propounded to this witness by any other Defense Counsel?
DR. FLEMMING: Flemming for Mrugowsky.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q Witness, what do you know about the relations between Grawitz and Mrugowsky?
A I know only that it was a perfectly factual and sober relationship. Any closer personal relations are not known to me in the slightest.
Q In your direct examination you said that you had seen Dr. Ding three or four times at Grawitz's office. Do you consider it possible that he was more frequently there without your having seen him?
A That is quite possible because I was not always present at the office. 5609
Q Do you know anything about the fact that Mrugowsky concerned himself with specific philosophical questions which were combatted and repudiated by the Nazi Party and that he identified himself with these views?
A You are probably referring to so-called "Holismus." It was known that Mrugowsky had relations with "Holistic" circles. So far as I know, this was a philosophical movement, I believe, which originated in England and which wished to deduce the laws of nature from the direct observation of nature herself, and I believe of "Holismus" it was said by the Nazis that the "Holists" had some relation with the policy Catholicism but I can't say that for sure, and it is true that Mrugowsky was accused of having connections with these "Holistic" people.
Q From the point of view of the Nazi Party and the SS, being in any way concerned with this philosophical matter was a liability.
A Yes; I know that the doctrines were combatted, but I don't know by whom.
DR. FLEMMING: Thank you. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other interrogation of the witness by any Defense Counsel? There being none, the Prosecution may crossexamine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q Dr. Poppendick, first of all I would like to clarify in my own mind and for the Tribunal just what positions you held. Now in August of 1935 you became a physician in the Main Race and Settlement Office in Berlin.
A In 1935 the name was not yet "Race and Settlement Office". It was the Amt Fuer Bevoelkerungs-Politik und GesundheitsPflege of the SS which was then transferred about a year later to the Race and Settlement Office.
Q Now then in 1941 you were appointed chief physician of the Main Race and Settlement Office.
A "Chief physician" is not the correct word. We use the word "managing physician", because he was not in charge of the whole Main Office but simply could give certain orders in the medical department.
Q Well, there was not any other medical man higher than you, was there?
A No, not in the Race and Settlement Office.
Q Now you held that position in the Race and Settlement Office until when?
AAutumn of '44, roughly.
Q. Now then, will you explain what your position was in this socalled "Sippen-amt? Was that a department of the Main Race and Settlement Office or just what was the Sippen-amt? As you explained it here?
A. The Sippen-amt was an office in the Race and Settlement Office, one office of many and in this Sippen-amt there was a Main Medical Department in which the doctors were included although this depended differently from time to time.
Q. Now then, in 1943 you were appointed to the staff of Grawitz when the re-organization of the SS Medical Services took place; is that right?
A. No, I didn't hold office the first time in 1943. That was in 1939.
Q. Now, when Grawitz had the re-organization you were appointed Chief of the Personal Staff of the Reichsarzt SS. That was in September or first of September 1943; is that right?
A. The doctors of the Race Settlement Office, really, I belonged in the summer of 1939 to the Reich Physicians.
Q. Listen to my question; on the first September 1943 you became Chief of the Personal Staff of Grawitz as Reichsarzt SS, did you not?
A. Yesterday I stated I received the title without there ever existing such an office.
Q. Then you had the title "Chief of the Personal Staff of the Office of Reichsarzt SS?"
A. Yes.
Q. Now, prior to 1 September 1943 what was your contact with Grawitz? What position did you hold relative Grawitz, if any?
A. Before 1943 since 1939 I was an ordinary member of Grawitz' staff, not having any special position in the TO as I had been transferred primarily to work in the Race and Settlement Office and I was simply used to do small jobs because I was present at Grawitz' office for hours at a time.
Q. Now, if I understand it correctly then you held that minor position under Grawitz from about 1939 until the end; is that right?
A. Yes, that's true.
Q. And you tell us that position was one in which you handled minor tasks or special assignments; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. More or less a general handy-man when needed?
A. No, that's going too far because I wasn't always there.
Q. Well, now then, the first time you received the title was in the re-organization on 1 September 1943; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Well now, after you received the title as Chief of the Personal Staff did you have any duties?
A. I wasn't Chief of the Personal Staff but Chief of the Personal Office and so titled but as I said yesterday quite explicitly Grawitz stated that he was giving specific responsibilities but in effect everything would remain the way it had been.
Q. Well, then what did you consider yourself under Grawitz? Did you consider yourself a messenger boy or a letter-carrier like Rudolf Brandt or first an advisor or just what did you consider yourself?
A. If you want to call it that, I really was a messenger boy for Grawitz because my rank and all of my activities were carried out in the Race and Settlement Main Office.
Q. Messenger is a pretty high rank when it's an SS Oberfuehrer.
A. I have already said that my rank was connected with my activities as a member doctor in the Race and Settlement Office and that you could draw any deductions about my activities elsewhere for example by the Reichs physician.
Q. Well now, did you had any connection whatsoever with Leipzig? Now, you have heard here relating to institutions at Leipzig or some such thing? Now, did you have any connection or contact with an institution in Leipzig?
A. I know only of one, not two institutions in Leipzig. That was the research laboratory of Professor Von Kennel, whom I knew.
Q. Did you have any contact with that experimental laboratory of Prof. Von Kennel?
A. I knew Prof. Von Kennel and I also remember that once I provided him with a secretary, a specific secretary who was elsewhere employed at the time by the Planning office and I went to the office where she was employed and made efforts to get her for Prof. Von Kennel.
Q. Did you have any capacity whatsoever in this Institute at Leipzig?
A. No.
Q. Well now, your contact prior to 1943, that is, 1 September 1943 with the Reichsarzt SS Grawitz wasn't a close contact. Is that the impression you wish to convey?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, how do you account for the fact, doctor, in Document NO-321 which is on page 116 of Prosecution's Document Book -- this is a document wherein Rascher and Grawitz were having their discussion concerning freezing and wherein you interrupted or you were quoted here as stating on page 116: "Well, I already had to ask Standartenfuehrer Sievers several times to come to me to receive information. In the long-run all medical matters wind up with us any way." Now, isn't that conveying the thought you were closely connected with all of the activities of Grawitz' office?
A. This text is Rascher' text. In other words, by no means a document as to what was discussed there and moreover the rest of the letter shows this as a very one-sided coloration; I think a very specific purpose, namely, to achieve certain results with the Reichsfuehrer SS. I say that I did not make that statement in that form but Rascher conducted himself in this experiment most peculiarly and although he belonged to the General SS he disputed the fact that he was subordinate to the Reich Physician.
Therefore, I pointed out our situation in the Sippen-amt, that we too were subordinate to the Reich Physician and as necessary consequences after all medical matters did have to go through certain channels and here as the Staff Physician of the Race Settlement Office I also, outside of Grawitz' Office said something and namely, that Sievers could not ask me to come to him in an official capacity; that I said yesterday, that argument is a distorted representation which is not true at least in this sense nor can I ever remember having discussed anything with Sievers previously.
Q. Now, you were in this gathering as stated further in this document -- I reckon that is the meeting with Rascher and Grawitz and yourself -- you were present?
A. I was called in later.
Q. When was that meeting?
A. The meeting took place at the beginning of 1943, if I recall correctly.
Q. January 1943?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you stated on direct examination that you had visited Dachau twice; that is in 1935 and 1941?
A. Yes, that's true.
Q. Who accompanied you on your 1935 visit to Dachau?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Was Grawitz with you?
A. I didn't know Grawitz at that time and had nothing to do with him. That happened when I was connected with the Race Settlement Office, that visit.
Q. Now, was Grawitz with you in the 1941 visit?
A. No, under no circumstances.
Q. Did you say on direct that Grawitz was with you when you visited Dachau in 1941?
A. No, I did not say that.
Q. Then is must by interpretation -- your Honor, I will have to check that. Let's go on to the sulfa experiments, doctor. Now, you attended the Medical Conference in Berlin in 1943 when Gebhardt and Fischer reported on the results of the sulfanilamide experiments, did you not?
A. Yes. I heard that report.
Q. Were you able to ascertain from that report that concentration camp inmates were used in these experiments?
A. No, that could not be seen under any circumstance as I remember the things.
Q. Now, didn't Gebhardt tell you that could be seen readily that they experimented on concentration camp inmates or people condemned to death?
A. As far as I remember what Mr. Gebhardt say was that the experimental subjects were persons condemned to death but he didn't say they were concentration camp inmates.
Q But you in fact knew before this meeting that these experiments were being conducted at the Concentration Camp Ravensbrueck, didn't you?
A No.
Q Are you sure, doctor?
A No. I knew nothing about that.
Q Well, now, to your knowledge, did Grawitz - pardon me, strike that - to you knowledge, did Gebhardt every submit reports to Grawitz concerning his experiments at Ravensbrueck?
A Professor Gebhardt himself said that he sent reports but I wouldn't know that particularly.
Q You never saw anything in the nature of preliminary reports originating from Professor Gebhardt concerning sulfanilamide experiments at Ravensbrueck?
A I cannot recall having seen anything in this connection.
Q Well, suppose Gebhardt sent a preliminary report to Grawitz concerning experiments with gas gangrene carried out on inmates of Ravensbrueck Concentration Camp, would you have been in a position to see it?
A No, by no means.
Q And you never saw such a report?
A I cannot recall anything of that sort.
Q Let us establish a time element, doctor. Assume Grawitz received a preliminary report from Gebhardt in June 1942 - would you have seen that report then?
A No, by no means. There was no reason why I should.
Q Would you have seen such a report if he had received it in July?
A The time doesn't make any difference.
Q Would you have seen such a report in August?
A I just said that time doesn't make any difference here. As a matter of policy such things wouldn't go to me. Occasionally I saw some details but not in context and I couldn't tell you now.
Q What was your rank in August 1942?
A In August 1942 I believe I was Obersturmbannfuehrer.
Q Obersturmbannfuehrer, is that right? Well, I will show you the report, doctor, the preliminary report or such. I want you to identify the original. I just received it from Berlin this morning. I haven't had an opportunity to prepare it. I would like to present this to the witness for identification of his signature. Defense counsel may look at it. I will offer it formally at a later date.
Is that your signature, Dr. Poppendick?
A Yes.
Q Turn to the second page of that document - just the second page. What is the subject, just the subject - the heading at the top the subject of the report?
A "Interim Report on the Clinical Experiments at Ravensbrueck Concentration Camp by orders of the Reichsfuehrer-SS". On the 20th of 7 - 42 --
Q That is enough. Would you kindly give that document to the defense counsel, please?
A Now, doctor, in your position as Chief, or as what you call Managing Physician in the Main Race and Settlement Office --
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, do you desire this document marked with an identification number, having been introduced?
MR. HARDY: I was going to wait until such a time as defense counsel finished perusing the document, your Honor.
EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. HARDY:
Q Can you tell the Tribunal what the negative racial policy was?
A The negative racial population policy concerned all extermination measures in contradistinction to the positive racial population to the positive racial population policy which was to be promoted by Dr. Lenz.
Q Well, now what was this negative racial policy - what was the theory behind it?
A Lenz, for instance, called sterilization which became law in the Third Reich as negative population policy and he believed that no final conclusive result could be achieved.
Q In other words, negative racial policy was that policy wherein anyone who did not meet requirements as pure Aryans would be exterminated?
A These matters were completely outside my sphere. At any rate negative population policy at the high school was not something that had to do with extermination at least not the way we studied it in college. It was a matter that concerned the relation between the identity of the German race and other people. In other words, specific groups or people having off springs or having one child less than another group of persons, then this would decrease the birth rate.
Q Well, was this negative racial policy and positive racial policy of concern to the Race and Settlement Office? That was one of your problems, was it not?
A No.
Q It wasn't?
A Well, yes, so far as the positive population policy played a role because it was important to the SS members to have more children than other people but actually that didn't work out that way and the SS didn't make any distinction.
Q Well, if it wasn't of interest to the Main Race and Settlement Office why did you concern yourself with sterilization?
A Me?
Q Yes, you.
A I never knew I concerned myself with that. I did not belong to any hereditary health court and that was the department that was concerned with sterilization.
Q Assume in 1941 - let's assume this for a moment - that you did concern yourself with sterilization in 1941. Now, would you have concerned yourself with sterilization in your capacity as physician in the Main Race and Settlement Office or in your capacity as the man who took care of special assignments of odd jobs for Dr. Grawitz. Suppose the situation ever arose wherein you would have to concern yourself with sterilization, would it arise out of your job as physician in the Main Race and Settlement Office or as position of subordinate to Grawitz - in which capacity?
A Questions of this sort might have represented me through ---
Q Now, you testified in direct examination that you only know about legal sterilization, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Well, now let's look at Document Book NO VI, document NO 214, Exhibit 68, found on page 51 of the English, your Honor. If defense counsel has the German copy I would appreciate it if he would submit that to the witness for the purpose of this examination. That is NO-214 under Klauberg's Section, Sterilization Section, Document Book VI.
Now, the date of this letter?
A 20 May 1941.
Q That's right. Well, now, doctor, it says here - Reference Report to Reichsfuehrer-SS 27 May 1941." Do you know anything about that report that was made to Reichsfuehrer-SS 27 May 1941?
A I know that female sterilization was to be treated according to this Klauberg method and I also know the name but I do not know this letter. I know nothing of the report to the Reichsfuehrer. If I know anything it is only concerned with the treatment of female sterilization.
Q Well, now did you concern yourself with the treatment of female sterilization at this time here 1941, in May, June, or July?
A Me? No. I was interested in this as a doctor in the Sippen-amt".
Q Then you wouldn't have any knowledge that they were preparing to perform treatments, upon women, to perform experiments on women in connection with Klauberg's method?
A I knew nothing about sterilization.
Q Nothing about it doctor? Let's see if we can refresh your memory a little. It might be a good time to break, your Honor. We can introduce this document after the recess.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. HARDY: At this time, Your Honor, I should like to mark for identification the Document on which the defendant Poppendick recognized his signature. This is a Document, which contains a cover letter, signed by the Reichsarzt SS Dr. Grawitz, addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS. Himmler, referring to an enclosed copy of a report by Gebhardt on experiments at Ravensbruck, and then the copy of the preliminary report by Gebhardt on experiments at Ravensbruck is attached thereto. This is Document SS 2788 and will be marked for identification as Prosecution Exhibit No. 473. This is the only copy we have of the Document, Your Honor and when it is duly processed we will then submit it formally.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, this Document No. 1639.
MR. HARDY: That is the next one, I am coming to, Your Honor, This is the one that was submitted to the defendant for identification of his signature, of which the court does not have a copy.
Now, we will turn to Document NO-1639, which is offered for identification as Prosecution Exhibit No. 474, which....
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I object to the submission of this Document NO-1639, because it obviously cannot be what it should be according to the contents of the first page, namely a list of physicians. In addition to that the annex bears an earlier date than the letter itself, addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS; the letter to the Reichsfuehrer SS bears that date of 4 June 1941, whereas the so-called annex, which does not belong to it, because of its contents, bears the date of 29 May 1941; therefore, the list of the physicians who are to perform the treatment regarding sterilization must have been lost; however, in no way can the letter to the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, which is attached as an annex, be in any way connected with the first letter, which was signed by Poppendick.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, the two documents that I mention here are given the same document number, obviously because in the Berlin Document Center they were found together; however, it is true that one is dated 29 May 1941 and the other is dated 4 June 1941; however, I do not propose to offer the English and the German copies as the first document, I will take up each one of them separately. One is joined to the other because they received the same document number in Berlin, they are dealing with the same subject and I submit them to Your Honor for perusal because they are original German Documents. I don't think there is any cause for objection or any cause for further comment on my part.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, you do not content that these two documents, both bearing the number NO-1639, are attached documents?
MR. HARDY: No, they are not attached Documents.
THE PRESIDENT: They are separate documents you contend.
HR. HARDY: They are separate documents obviously, found in the same file folder in Himmler's office.
THE PRESIDENT: But then of course the duplication of the NO-1639 is in fact an error.
MR. HARDY: We don't claim it was an error, Your Honor, we contend these documents are dealing with the same subject, and they are together as one document, and they will be fully explained when presented.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, they are of course being merely marked for identification?
MR. HARDY: That is right, Your Honor.
DR. BOEHM: And then in that case, I should like to ask that the original of the second Document be submitted in order to ascertain who signed it as the first Document was signed by Poppendick and in the case of the second document there is no signature.
MR. HARDY: The signature is Dr. Grawitz on the original, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: These documents should bear different identification numbers; I see no connection between them.
MR. HARDY: Then I will have to give them different NO numbers also, Your Honor. The Prosecution wishes to put them in as one Document.
THE PRESIDENT: They are not connected, they are not one document.
DR. BOEHM: It is my opinion that this is not permissible, these two documents have nothing at all to do with one another, they are completely separate.
MR. HARDY: Then I will give one Document the NO-1639 and the other Document NO-1639-A. Document 1639 will bear prosecution exhibit 474 for identification purposes, and Document NO-1639-A, Prosecution Exhibit 475 for identification.
I now wish to take up the Document NO-1639, and if Your Honor has looked at the original document, I should like to submit it to the witness.
Now, Dr. Poppendick, we will note that the letter on page 51 of Document Book 6, which is dated 30 May 1941, which was Document NO-214, referred to a report to the Reichsfuehrer SS on 27 May 1941; now this Document NO-1639 which is being offered for identification as Prosecution Exhibit 474 is dated 29 May 1941 and the reference is.....
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, your Document NO-1639 is dated 4 June.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I now offer Document NO-1639, which is the first document, it is dated 29 May 1941, the other is dated 4 June 1941 and I marked that NO-1639-A.
THE PRESIDENT: June 4th is 1639-A?
MR. HARDY: Yes, Your Honor, which is Prosecution Exhibit No. 475 for identification. Now, this letter dated 29 May 1941, the reference is 'Oral Report to Reichsfuehrer SS on 27 May 1941':"Reichsfuehrer:
At a conference on 27th May 1941 in the presence of Herr Professor Clauberg, concerning his new method of sterilization of inferior women without an operation, a regretable misunderstanding has occurred:
"For developing this method Prof. Clauberg requires the women furnished for this purpose to be in his own hospital in Koenigshuette or in the vicinity, as the method is still being worked out, as Prof. Clauberg needs his own clinical apparatus, just procured for the purpose, on the spot, and as he must be there, personally, for operations in case of incidents.
"The matter has again been discussed in all details with Prof. Clauberg and it resulted that, under the prevailing circumstances, the carrying out of the experimental work in Ravensbrueck is out of question.
"Taking into account the exorbitant significance which such a method would have for a negative population policy and it results therefrom to be of importance to support the establishment of a flawless method with all means; therefore, I beg to submit the proposal, Reichsfuehrer, to furnish Prof. Clauberg with a proper research institute in or around Koenigshuette and to attach it to a women concentration camp for about 10 persons.
"Provided that you consent I beg to authorize me to discuss the matter further in your name with SS-Gruppenfuehrer Pohl and SS Brigadefuehrer Gluecks."
The signature appears there on: "Grawitz."
Q Now, Doctor, do you know anything about these matters?
A I could only conclude therefrom that we are here concerned with two entirely different fields Clauberg dealt with, one of the fields regarding creation of sterility itself, and one regarding the treatment of sterility. I only know something of the treatment of women already sterile.
Q Well, then, as a result of this research work of Clauberg, he established a method wherein other doctors performed sterilizations. Is that a clear understanding of the situation?
A If I see correctly, the data and the physicians that are to perform the treatment and the beginning of the experiments do not tally. Even if this was correct, the result of these experiments had yet to be expected, but already at that time in the Spring of 1943 the physicians Wolf, Schultz and another two had been mentioned to me regarding their treatment of sterile SS women. These must be two distinctly separate matters.
Q Well, now it states here in the fourth paragraph of the letter:
"Taking into account the exorbitant significance which such a method would have for a negative population policy and it results therefrom," and so forth. Now, then, do you understand that to mean that the purpose of this experimentation was in order to apply a sterilization method to complete and follow up the negative population policy?
A I don't know what this expression "negative population policy" is supposed to mean.
Q It is very simple, isn't it, Doctor, that if they have persons that they consider to be in the class that is set forth in the negative racial policy or negative population policy that they could well sterilize those people and thereby use them as slave laborers or use them for work of any description and have no fear that other persons fitting into the category would be born to said persons? Isn't that very simple? Isn't that one of the purposes of the negative racial or population policy?
That is, sterilization?
A No. After reading that letter I would have only considered it as a sterilization program for these people who according to the law would have to be sterilized in any case.
Q Then the only knowledge you have of this is the legal phase of sterilization? That is, all these criminal acts were known all around you, yet Poppendick only heard of the legal phase of the sterilization, is that it?
A Whether all this went on around me I don't know. At any rate, as a physician of the Race and Settlement Main Office, I was concerned with the treatment of sterile SS women using Clauberg's as well as other physicians' methods who had a good reputation in the Reich.
Q And you never heard that Clauberg was using concentration camp inmates to experiment so as to find a better method for sterilization?
A No, and if I heard that; even if he had worked in a concentration camp, I could only have assumed that we are here concerned with similar matters, namely, the treatment of women who were already sterile.
Q Well, now, did you ever talk to Grawitz about any of these matters of feminine sterility?
A Yes, I probably spoke about female sterility to him. It is quite possible that we discussed the treatment of female sterility.
Q Well, then, during the course of the discussion of the treatment of female sterility, did you ever discuss the possibility of experimenting along those lines in order to find a more efficient and effective way to gain your goal?
AAn effective way? Do you mean for the treatment of sterility?
Q The treatment, yes.
A I can't remember.
Q Well, now, we have this document NO-1639-A which is offered for identification. Now this is a letter from you to SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Brandt dated 4 June 1941. Now this is Document NO-1639-A which is offered for identification as Prosecution Exhibit No. 475:"Dear Comrad Brandt: