Grawitz was not satisfied with this. He concluded this conference, which was among the most dramatic conferences I have ever had in my whole life, with the statement that he would submit this matter to our common chief, Himmler, and would tell me later what happened. I then found out that a few days later he actually did meet Himmler somehow, and when he told me of this talk with Himmler he told me specially that he had informed Himmler of his and my points of view and that Himmler had decided against my point of view. He had been so kind to me as not to commission me with these experiments but on Grawitz's suggestion Ding, who had already been trained in the field of typhus, was to be used for this purpose.
Q. Mr. President, I refer now to Mrugowsky Document 38, which I put in evidence yesterday as Mrugowsky Exhibit 13. I should like to read number 1 to 3 on page 48 of the document book. This is the affidavit of Mrugowsky's former secretary, Susanne Dumont. Page 48:
"1. I was employed as Mrugowsky's secretary from 1 March 1939 to April 1945. I dealt with the greater part of his correspondence. Mrugowsky also often talked to me about the various matters connected with the correspondence in order that I should be informed in case of queries during his absence.
"When I started work there, the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS was in the process of formation. I therefore took part in the whole development of the Institute and have personal knowledge of many details.
"2. Because of the numerous cases of typhus in the concentration camps and among the Waffen SS troops during the winter of 1941/42 Mrugowsky decided to manufacture typhus vaccine for the concentration camps and for the Waffen SS in the Hygiene Institute, in order to be inde pendent of the industrial supplies.
"One day Mrugowsky told me that he had spoken to Grawitz about the intention to manufacture typhus vaccine and that a department of the Hygiene Institute was to be formed at Buchenwald for the manufacture of this vaccine.
The process was to be carried out in Buchenwald so that it would not be endangered by air raids on Berlin. Also it was easier to obtain fodder there for the animals necessary for the tests and there was also a sufficient number of experts at Buchenwald to lock after the animals and to manufacture the vaccine. I also heard then that Dr. Ding would be in charge of the vaccine production and that he was to learn under Professor Gildemeister in the Robert Koch Institute the process of manufacturing typhus vaccine which the professor had developed.
"I know from Dr. Ding that he worked for some time in the Robert Koch Institute with Gildemeister in order to learn the Gildemeister method of producing typhus vaccine.
"3. Some time after Ding had been sent to the Robert Koch Institute to learn the manufacture of the vaccine, Mrugowsky told me that Grawitz had asked him when his vaccine manufacture would be far enough advanced for large quantities of vaccine to be available for innoculations. He replied that this would take at least six months because the animal tests had to be repeated before workable results were achieved and because even then the vaccine would have to mature. Grawitz was annoyed at the long delay and suggested that the animal tests be dispensed with and prisoners be used for the tests instead. Mrugowsky grumbled at the time about Grawitz and said that he had only suggested the tests on human beings because he did not want to have to report to Himmler that the vaccine for the inoculations would not be available for approximately another six months. He told me he had rejected in the presence of Grawitz the suggestion of testing with prisoners and had quoted his book "Medical Ethics" in which he had stated his opinion about such tests.
"A short time later on his way back from seeing Grawitz again, Mrugowsky told me that Himmler had decreed that prisoners should be used for the vaccine tests. He mentioned in this connection that Grawitz would very likely pass Himmler's order directly on to Ding."
Now I should like to read from Document No. 39., page 59 of the document book. This is the affidavit of Mrs. Hildegard Pfaffinger, who was assistant secretary and proxy of Susanne Dumont.
Page 59, Mrugowsky Document 39. I wish to give this Exhibit Mrugowsky 16. Frau Pfaffinger says, after the customary introduction:
"From about October, 1940, to March, 1942, I was a shorthand typist, and subsequently from January, 1944, until April, 1945, as assistant secretary to Professor Dr. Mrugowsky at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS. During the above periods, as well as during the intervening period, I used to do the work of the first secretary, Miss Susanne Dumont, when she was absent due to sickness or vacation. Through those activities I was able to gain an extensive insight into the correspondence and operation of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS. I still can remember that one day my co-worker Dumont told me at the institute that the "old man", meaning our chief, Professor Dr. Mrugowsky, had another argument with Grawitz and an advocated his divergent opinion against Grawitz. Grawitz had asked him to conduct the experiments with typhus vaccine not on animals but on prisoners because the experiments on animals would take too much time. But the chief had rejected that emphatically as contrary to his conception of professional ethics. My co-worker, Susanne Dumont, and I were happy when hearing of the upright attitude of our chief since our conception of medical ethics was the same."
Now from Document Book 1-A which has just been submitted to the Tribunal, I should like to read the affidavit of co-Defendant Dr. Rose, Document Mrugowsky 48. I should like to submit it as Mrugowsky Exhibit 17, page 159 in the document book 1-A Exhibit No. 17. After the ordinary usual introduction, Dr. Rose says:
"My controversy with Dr. Ding and Professor Dr. Schreiber during the third meeting of the consulting physicians occurred in a morning session of the session hygiene and tropical hygiene." I will begin again at the beginning the microphone is not working:
"My controversy with Dr. Ding and Professor Dr. Schreiber during the third meeting of the consulting physicians occurred in a morning session of the section hygiene and tropical hygiene."
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, on what page of Document Book 1-A is this affidavit to be found?
DR. FLEMMING: 159 of Document Book 1-A which was just submitted to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: That is the affidavit of Gerhard Rose?
DR. FLEMING: That is correct, Document No. 48, Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 17. Should I begin again from the beginning, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: No.
DR. FLEMING: "During the lunch recess several listeners of the Ding lecture came to me in order to discuss with me my attack on these experiments. The majority agreed to my opinion. A not unimportant minority, however, regarded my point of view as wrong, whereby the latter counted upon the assurance given by Dr. Ding during the discussion that the experimental subjects were criminals who were sentenced to death.
"I cannot remember for sure who spoke for and who against it. I remember only the person of Dr. Mrugowsky because I regarded him as Ding's superior in every respect. Dr. Mrugowsky belonged to these who agreed to my opinion. Naturally, today, after nearly four years, I do not remember the exact ***ding; however, I remember the fact itself. He said approximately that he had on principle the same scruples as I had, and that he, therefore, voiced them prior to tho experiments to Dr. Grawitz. The latter discussed that with Himmler and there a decision against him had been reached. He stated that he, too, would have preferred, in spite of tho results achieved, if the SS would not have had to carry out the experiments.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q Were the available vaccines on hand known as to their effectiveness?
A No, only the Weigl vaccine was known so far as its effectiveness is concerned, but the vaccines manufactured in tho Reich were not. The difficulty with the Weigl vaccine was not purely technical in the way that I have just described, but was also an organizational difficulty because two types of lice breeds were necessary in the institute. On the one hand ordinary lice had to be bred, and also infected lice had to be bred, and **th of them had to be fed, but the only thing they could feed on were human beings. That's where the whole heard of lice feeders was necessary to keep these lice alive. But we don't know lice in Germany, our population is not used to these little animals, consequently, it would have been very difficult to find men who would be willing to act as food for lice.
"signed Dr. Gerhard Rosa."
Regarding the chicken egg process, on the other hand, we did not know its effectiveness. Later in the year 1943 it was not so well known as was the Weigl vaccine. That can be seen from a document to be found in Professor Handloser's document book and which is signod by Professor Otto in Frankfurt, the man who knows most about typhus in all of Europe.
Q Now this Handloser document -- this Handloser Document No. 44-A, Hanloser Exhibit 14-A. I now submit to you the affidavit to be found in Document Book 12, the affidavit that Dr. Ding drew up before his death, Document NO-257, Exhibit 283, Document Book No. 12, page 9 in the German document book.
THE PRESIDETE: What is the number of that exhibit?
DR. FLEMMING:NO-257, Exhibit No. 283. It is the third document in this document book 12 page 9 of the German document book.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q I draw your attention to Roman Numeral II on the second page of this affidavit. There it says:
"In February, 1942, the carrying out of the experiments on the effectiveness of typhus vaccine was ordered. I (namely, Dr. Ding) was appointed to carry out these experiments. Since my office was in Berlin, I had to have a deputy in Buchenwald during my absence. For this post the Reichsarzt-SS Dr. Grawitz, in agreement with the leading doctor of the concentration camps Lolling, named the SS Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Hoven as station doctor at Buchenwald."
Would you like to say anything about this statement of Ding's?
A This statement of Ding's reinforces what I said, namely, that Grawitz appointed Ding directly for this job. It can also be soon from this that Grawitz appointed a deputy, about whose existence, by tho way, I knew nothing. I did not know Dr. Hoven, and made his acquaintance only a week before his own arrest in 1943, whereas this statement refers to a period of time a year and a half earlier than that. Let me also point out that from the nest page of this document, page 3, it is to be seen that for the experiments, the RSHA and tho chief of concentration camps had freed inmates from concentration camps, namely, habitual criminals who had been condemned to death, which were used by Dr. Balachowski makes the same statement, who was working as inmate in Block 50 in Buchenwald.
Q I come now to the conference which took place on the 29th of December, 1941, according to Ding's diary, at which it supposedly was decided to carry out experiments on human beings. The Prosecution has in the meantime submitted Document 1315, Prosecution Exhibit 454, and 1321 Prosecution Exhibit No. 453, the two documents form one unified document apparently. I shall show you this document. It is not in a specific document book but was submitted subsequently. It can be seen from this document that on 29 December 1941 there was acconference on the typhus problem at tho Reich Ministry of the Interior, and the participants in this conference were quite different from those whom Ding stated.
Do you know whether on 29 December 1941 there was, besides this conference in the Reich Ministry of the Interior, another conference on typhus, and let me point out right away that Dietsch, in his affidavit, Document 1314, Prosecution Exhibit 433, stated that aside from the persons mentioned by Ding also Rose, Ding and Schreiber supposedly took part in the conference?
A Such a conference as is here described in Ding's diary on 29 December 1941, which Handloser, Conti, Reiter, Gildemeister and I are said to have attended, did not take place as here described. Not did I know that Ding ever took part in such a conference. I, at any rate, did not, so far as I remember, take him along. That on 29 December 1941 there was a conference in the Reich Ministry of the Interior - it was, as can be seen from Prosecution Document 1315, a conference between members cf the Reich Ministry of the Interior with industrialists - was not known to me. Nor is it said that I took part in that. Only in the interrogations that preceded this trial did I find out that this conference ever took place at all. On the other hand, it is true that at some conference or other which also dealt with methods of controlling typhus I met Professor Rose but, as I remember, this was a purely army matter which has nothing to do with the problems her under discussion but discussed de-lousing. That is all I have to say about that.
A. When did you find out about this conference on 29 December 1941 in the Reich Ministry cf the Interior?
A That this conference took place in the Reich Ministry of the Interior I only discovered from seeing this Prosecution Document 1315.
Q But according to this Prosecution Document, in this conference it was decided that Dr. Demnitz cf the Lehring works was to get in touch with to test typhus vaccines. Now, according to that, you must have known about the fact that this conference took place. Please read the passage in question
A On page 2 of Document 1315, Prosecution Exhibit 454, under (b) it says that "the vaccine now being manufactured by the Behring Works, which is extracted from chicken eggs, is to be tested as to its efficacy. For this purpose Dr. Demnitz will get in touch with SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Mrugowsky."
Of course, I know Dr. Demnitz. He is the technical manager of the Behring Works. He had considerable experience in foreign lands, Brazil, and know a great deal about the production of vaccine to control all sorts of diseases in human beings and animals. But it was only now that I have become acquainted with this file note at the presentation of this document. I did not know that at that conference it was agreed that Demnitz should get in touch with me, and he did not get in touch with me.
Q I submit now to the Tribunal, Mrugowsky Document 62. This is an a* davit on the part of Dr. Demnitz, in Document Book No. 1, page 64. Please let me submit it as Mrugowsky Exhibit #18.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honors, this document is an affidavit with several German documents attached thereto. Prior to any admission of this document into evidence, the prosecution would like to examine the orig German documents that are attached to this affidavit. Then, if they are in due order, I will refrain from objecting, but if they are not German documents which should be submitted here I will tender an objection. I would like to see them prior to admission.
THE PRESIDENT: Can Counsel for the prosecution examine those German documents during the morning recess or the noon recess?
DR. FLEMMING: They are accessible to him right now.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, attached to these affidavits are two letters which presumed to be documents dated in the year 1942. Dr. Flemming has here, as his original exhibit, a carbon copy which is certified to by the Burgomeister as being a true copy of the original German document. Now, as during the course of the presentation of the Prosecution's casein-chief, and throughout, we have, in every instance, introduced either photostatic copies of German documents or the original German documents, I don't see how it is possible for the Tribunal or the Prosecution to ascertain the authenticity of this document without a more elaborate certi cate, or a photostatic copy of the original, or the original. This is certainly not in compliance with the regulations that we have followed to date. Therefore, I object to the admission of these two carbon copies will are copies of the letter and not a photostatic or the original itself.
I would like to pass them up to the Tribunal to look them over.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, these are certified copies which have been taken from the files of the Behring Works and the authenticity of which has been certified by the Mayor. The Tribunal has permitted that affidavits shall be certified either by a notary or, in small places where there is no notary public, can be certified by the Mayor. It is my opinion that, in the same way, the Mayor then is also authorized to certify the correctness of copies of documents which are contained in the files of firms and of which we defense counsel can not get the original. Also, in small localities like Marbach near Marburg, where the Behring Works are, it is not possible to make photostatic copies of such documents. The only possibility that we have to use these documents in our defense is to present certified copies, the correctness of which is certified by a person whom the Tribunal has accepted as competent to do so. The Prosecution can not hold it against this that they have submitted photostats when they haven't submitted the originals, because the Prosecution is in a position, with its wonderful equipment, to make photostatic copies of anything it wants copies of. This opportunity, however, is not available to us in small country communities, and consequently it would simply cut us off from presenting evidence if you asked that we produce the originals or photostats of documents that are in the files of business firms. If the Mayor certifies that the copy is a verbatim copy I really can not see why its authenticity should be substantiated more by the introduction of a photostat instead of a verbatim copy. That could only have a purpose if they were documents in long hand in which the handwriting had to be identified for some reason or other, but never in the case of documents written on a typewriter.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I submit that I am not objecting to the affidavit which precedes the documents, this affidavit of Dr. Demnitz, I do not object to that at all. I am objecting to these two documents - letters and orders attached thereto on vaccines, simply because these are not copies of the original. They are not carbon copies made at the same time. These are copies which were made on February 28, 1947.
Now, whether this is a copy of the original document - it is so certified - but I think with the spirit of the case as we have been going along, the prosecution has introduced the German documents, that this does not comply with the regulations of the Tribunal, and, therefore, I do not see why we should be in a position to admit this into evidence. Now, in the case of its being certified by a notary or burgomeister, which is true of the affidavits, at any time if we doubt the authenticity of a document we can call in the document or call in a person in respect to an affidavit, but, in this instance, we do not even have the original German document. It seems to me that defense counsel could borrow it for a period of a week or two weeks in every instance to avoid this problem.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, if the objection of the prosecution is sustained, then my only alternative would be to call Dr. Demnitz with his files to Nuernberg as a witness. That a mayor does not certify anything that is incorrect --
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Secretary General have a copy - a Germany copy - of Mrugowsky's Document Book No. 1?
JUDGE SEBRING: Dr. Flemming, will you refer to page 2 of the Demnitz affidavit and read beginning at the bottom of that page, beginning with the words. "Furthermore, on 3 February 1942".
DR. FLEMMING: That I shall read in a different context later.
JUDGE SEBRING: I want you to read it now because it appears that this affidavit is not complete.
DR. FLEMMING: Shall I read it aloud?
JUDGE SEBRING: Just that small portion. I don't think the English document is completed.
DR. FLEMMING: "Furthermore, on 3 February 1942 eighteen bottles ing each contain/25 ccm typhus vaccine were forwarded to SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Ding, Berlin Knesebeckstrasse 43/44."
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, may I ask once more to look whether it isn't already with the Bench. My secretary tells me that she gave the originals to the representative of the Secretary General and that he passed it on to the Bench.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court will be in recess for a few moments so that the matter may be investigated.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal understands that the German document book will not be ready until noon. It will be prepared at that hour, however.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, shall I submit the affidavit which I previously announced now?
THE PRESIDENT: It appears to the Tribunal that the copies of letters referred to as attached to the affidavit are referred to in the affidavit itself.
DR. FLEMMING: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is disposed to overrule the objection and admit the exhibit as offered.
DR. FLEMMING: In that case I offer Document Mrugowsky 62 as Exhibit Mrugowsky 18. It can be found on Page 64 of the Document Book Mrugowsky 6 I shall omit the opening paragraph. The affidavit refers to the conference in the Reich Ministry of the Interior on the 29th of December 1941.
"On the 29th of December 1941 at a conference in the Reich Ministry for the Interior in Berlin, Professor Gildemeister communicated that a program of experiments for the testing of the lice vaccine according to Weigel and of the vaccine of the Robert Koch Institute had been fixed between the Robert Koch Institute and the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS. When the representatives of the Behring Works hoard this, they requested that the typhus vaccine of the Behring Works should also be included in this program of experiments. The program of experiments itself was not discussed, which, by the way in my opinion was completely superfluous because I took it as a matter of course that the comparative test of the vaccines would be conducted in the usual manner on persons in typhus areas who were threatened by typhus.
"Professor Gildemeister replied that we should approach Dr. Mrugowsky personally about this request. According to a very brief memorandum of Ministerialrat Bieber dated 4 January 1942, on the mentioned conference of 29 December 1941, it was to have been my task to contact Dr. Mrugowsky personally.
This personal discussion with Dr. Mrugowsky never took place quite apart from the fact that Bieber's memorandum of 4 January 1942 couldn't have reached me before 6 January 1942 at the earliest, that is, at the time when Bieber's instruction had been rendered invalid by events. On 2 January 1942 a certain Dr. Doetzer from the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS Berlin telephoned Marburg and ordered concentrated typhus vaccine for 600 persons. This vaccine was to be sent to Dr. Waegener of the East Ministry. At the same time concentrated vaccine for thirty persons was ordered to be sent to the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS in Berlin for the purpose of conducting comparative tests with the Gildemeister vaccine. Therefore, I no longer had reason to contact Dr. Mrugowsky personally with regard to the typhus vaccines. My own memorandum on the conference of 29 December 1941 proves, moreover, that Dr. Mrugowsky was not due to return from Kiev until 6 January 1942.
"During the following years of the war I visited Dr. Mrugowsky two or three times. The subject of these visits was merely the deferment of our Dr. Richard Maas, who was the head of the Typhus Institute in Lvov or else the postponement of the two Waffen SS training courses which Dr. Haas had to attend."
In the former part of the affidavit Dr. Demnitz states that he later spoke to Mrugowsky regarding one of his officials being considered indispensable, and, he, furthermore, states that he visited Mrugowsky in order to speak to him regarding vaccine of the Behring Works, and at that time human experiments were not discussed at all. At the bottom of page 65 he said that the invoices were attached with reference to the typhus vaccine. Then follows the usual certification. On page 67 there is a document which belongs to the document I just read, and it is the letter of the Behring Works addressed to the Hygiene Institute, which is concerned with the telephone conversation, and also the order of typhus vaccine for six hundred persons. At the same time there is a question there as to where this vaccine is to be sent for 30 persons. On page 68 there can be found a letter by the Hygiene Institute where it is asking that this vaccine for this 30 persons to be sent to Berlin to the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS. Pages 69 and 70 are the delivery notes regarding the type of typhus vaccine of the Behring Works. Now I offer document as Mrugowsky 63 -- one moment.
MR. HARDY: May I see the original of that, sir?
DR. FLEMMING: Document 64 is an affidavit made by - -
THE PRESIDENT: You refer first to document 63 and now you are referrin to 64. You refer in the first instance to document 63, and now you are referring to 64.
DR. FLEMMING: I was talking about document 64, I am sorry, Your Honor Document 64 is to be found on page 102, document book No. 1. This is a file located by a certain Mr. Zahn. It becomes Mrugowsky's No. 19. It is found also that deals with conference that took place at the Reich Ministry of Interior. The quoted note reads on page 102, and I quote: "Subject: The combat of typhus. The session is presided by Ministerialrat Dr. Bieber, who is "in charge of the department concerned with the fight against epidemics. Besides the undersigned and Dr. Demnitz/Marburg and Neumann/Leverkusen, the following gentlemen took part in the meeting: Oberstabsarzt Dr. Scholz, as delegate of the Inspector Generalstabsarzt, Dr. Handloser --"
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, in this regard, inasmuch as the Tribunal has admitted the other two documents submitted, and this likewise is submitted with a copy made and certified to by the Burgermeister, now do I understand it to be the ruling of the Tribunal, whenever a German document is offered here, when the original or photostat copy thereof can not be obtain that a typewritten copy certified to by the Burgermeister will be admissible in evidence?
THE PRESIDENT: In the affidavit referred to and the letter referred to, the letter mentioned you refer to in the affidavit of Dr. Demnitz is in this document? Where is the original of this document, counsel?
DR. FLEMMING: The Prosecution had it.
MR. HARDY: Do I understand that counsel for the defendant says that the original of this document is in the possession of the Prosecution?
DR. FLEMMING: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Where is the original of this document, counsel?
DR. FLEMMING: The original of that document is to be found with the files of the Firma Behring at Marburg, and the Burgermeister of Marburg certified to the authenticity of the copy.
MR. HARDY: I may add, Your Honor -
THE PRESIDENT: When was this document book submitted to the Prosecution? Will you answer, Mr. Attorney.
MR. HARDY: The document book itself, Your Honor, the English, you mean?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. ELRDY: I b elieve we received it yesterday morning prior to Dr.. Bing commencing his dissent. The English translation of the document before the court at this time bears date of 29 November 1941, and so it in Dr. Flemming's bore the same date, although I did not carefully scrutiniz the quoted original exhibit which shows that it is the 29 November, and it is an apparent discrepancy inasmuch as the meeting took place on 29th December. Be that as it may, Your Honor, the Prosecution requests a ruling as to whether or not the document by submitting a copy therefor, that a typewritten copy will stand as an original to be introduced here into evidence in lieu of the original or photostatic copy thereof, if it is certified to by the Burgermeister.
THE PRESIDENT: The court itself is going to understand how counsel for the defense can still procure the originals, or photostatic copies. If the Prosecution is in doubt as to the correctness of any certified copy, it would be very simple matter to investigate that from that angle to find out if the matter is incorrect, or not. The Tribunal will be disposed to at least at this time to admit this document subject to a subsequent investigation by the Prosecution, if the Prosecution desires to make any examination as to the correctness of the document.
MR. HARDY: Then, Your Honor, am I to understand that documents in this form are to be admissible in the future. These are several, others in this Document Book, and I do not want to take the time of the Tribunal to objecting to them.
THE PRESIDENT: Each document offered under these circumstances constitute a separate case, and counsel, if he can show any different circumstance from those appearing in this document has a perfect right to object to the introduction of any such document. It might well be determined that if the appear questionable, that this rule might be applied.
MR. HARDY: Of course, before making your ruling, Your Honor, I want to call your attention to the fact that whenever the Prosecution introduce an exhibit, which purports to be a captured German document, that we have a rather elaborate system by Coogan affidavits and Neibergall affidavits to substantiate and to authenticate it and one need not to authenticate this document by the certification of the Burgermeister.
THE PRESIDENT: Exactly, but the Prosecution has ample means at its disposal to follow that procedure, while it is easy to see that the defense counsel has not any such means or opportunity.
DR. FLEMMING: I shall sec to it immediately that a photostat of that document be obtained, and I shall submit it subsequently. I shall see to it immediately that a photostat of this document is obtained, and I shall submit it in the future.
THE PRESIDENT: We understand, counsel.
DR. FLEMMING: In this case I shall offer the document Mrugowsky No. 64 as Mrugowsky's Exhibit No. 19. The first part of that document does not deal with the case that we deal with, but I should like to read from page 104 of the document, I should like to read the last paragraph, the last paragraph starting: "On request of Ministerialrat Dr. Lieber, it is also stipulated, that in a large-scale experiment - agreed upon by the Robert Koch Institute, and the Hygienist of the SS, Dr. Mrugowsky both Weigl's Vaccine, and the vaccine of the Behring Works shall be included."
"In this way it will probably be possible to compare the protective value of the different vaccines in a few months. All persons present are, however, even now aware of the fact, even if the vaccines produced of incubated chicken eggs would he somewhat less effective than the Weigl's vaccines, i.e., for instance, if the Weigl vaccine would offer a 10-80% protection, and the vaccines of the Behring works only approximately 60%, the egg vaccines still could be used in practice since they allowed at least to expect a mild course of the disease."
Witness, the prosecution will now assert that the large scale experiments arranged on 29 December 1941 were the first typhus experiments in Buchenwald. What can you say about that?
A. From this file notation of Director Zahn of the Behring Works it becomes evidence that a large scale experiment had been arranged. Ding, for the purpose of his first series of experiments, which started with four vaccines, provided 31 to 35 persons including 10 control persons. Dealing with biology we also reckoned with the threat of accidents and therefore it is a rule that sufficiently large numbers of experiments, animals or human beings, be used in order to exclude the possibility of an accident. Furthermore, there is a rule that in case figures below the hundred, no certain results can be expected; therefore, one automatically arrives at so-called large scale experiments with a high figure of persons.
It appears evident from the file notation that I was thinking of an experiment involving six hundred persons, that is, six hundred persons only treated with that vaccine. Ding only used a third of the minumum figure, namely, 31 to 35 persons and it is clear the the great possibility of accident then in the case of a large number of persons and if one minimizes that figure of 35 persons, the threat of accident would become so noticeable that a practical result would no longer be possible. When ********* such experiments on human beings, generally then the purpose can certainly not be served with a small number of persons involved. In the case of 35 or 31 persons we were certainly not concerned with a large scale experiment.
In addition, it further seems evident in this file notation that in case of this large scale experiment with 600 persons it was plain to me that from the Behring Works vaccine one could only expect delivery as from the 6th of January 1941. It can further be seen from Dr. Demnitz's remarks that I was only expected back from the Ukraine on the 6th of January and considering the long distance it is highly improbable that on the 29th of December, which was one week before, I was still in Berlin. It is very unlikely that I had left sometime earlier; therefore, I obviously was not in Berlin on the 29th of December and therefore could not participate in that meeting.
Ding started his first series of experiments on 6 January. That means that his order, the order for that experiment, had to come earlier that than for he yet had to obtain the vaccines. Dr. Bieber, who was in charge of that conference on the 29th of December, was a direct subordinate of Conti and it becomes clearly evident from the file notation of Dr. Zahn that these conferences were called by order of Conti.
It is therefore possible that in this way the problem was brought to Ding's attention and I would even go further, that it is not only probably, it is certain and I shall be in a position to submit the document which originates from that time and clearly proves that the large scale experiment, which was arranged by the Robert Koch Institute with me, had nothing at all to do with what Dr. Ding wanted. It was intended to use these vaccines on German civilians who were active in the typhus area of the east. That can be seen from Demnitz's assurances. I had access to this circle of persons since they were actually vaccinated on my order, that is, before they went to the occupied eastern territory. Then Dr. Wegner was the head of the health department of the eastern ministry, who carried out the vaccination of the people who were committed in that territory.
Q. In addition to the vaccine intended for 600 persons, that is, the large scale experiments, Dr. Demnitz mentioned a vaccine intended for 30 persons. Was that not for the purpose of experiments at Buchenwald?