DOC. NO 3720-PS Cont'd
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Q. I asked you towards the beginning whether you ever had any conversations
with Hitler concerning the policy decision of employing compulsion with
respect to the obtaining of foreign labour. Do you remember that?
A. Yes I remember it and I repeat my answer that I could find out from the
minutes whetehr such discussions took place.
A. I will show you a protocol of the conferences with the Fuehrer on the 10th,
11th and 12th August 1942, written up by you and call your attention
particularly to what is recorded as Page 16 and ask you to read it
and see if it refreshes your recollection?
(page 18 of original)
A. It is certain that the conference took place, otherwise it would not
have been contained here.
Q. Does that, after looking at it and after thinking out it, refresh your
recollection a little as to the circumstances of the meeting and the
discussion?
A. May I have the might to think about it and I am sure that I will remember
something about it then. You must take into account that during a conversation
with the Fuehrer thirty or forty different points were brought
up and that such discussions took place almost every three weeks. You
must furthermore take into account the fact that all these documents
that you show me now, you received from me, so than you can believe me
that I am not trying to hide anything.
Q. The question I want to ask you is not so much whether you remember this
particular conference as whether it does not remind you that you did
discuss at some time or other with Hitler the question of compulsion
of foreign labour?
A. That was certainly the case and it is apparent from this note. To this
I must add that Hitler would rather see foreign workers in Germany than
in production in the foreign countries. I further wish to add that if
you go through the minutes of the conferences with Hitler you will find
that the commitment
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DOC. NO. 3720-PS Cont'd
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- 20 -
of labour was frequently discussed in the beginning, that is in August
and September 1942 and that from there on there are no further points
on this subject contained therein. This is due to the fact that at
that time the differences between me and Sauckel already existed in
that Sauckel discussed his problems either directly with Hitler or
Bormann.
Q. But is it clear to you, Mr. Speer, that in 1942 when the decisions were
being taken concerning the use of forced foreign labour that you
participated in the discussions yourself.
A. Yes.
Q. So that I take it that the execution of the program of bringing foreign
workers into Germany by compulsion under Sauckel was based on earlier
decisions that had been taken with your agreement.
A. Yes, but I must point out that only a very small part of the man powers
that Sauckel brought into Germany was made available to me, a far
larger part of it was allocated to other departments that demanded
them.
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DOC. NO 3720-PS cont'd
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- 21 -
(page 19 of original)
Q. A certain number of these foreign workers were used specifically for the
armament industries under your control, were they not.
A. I don't quite understand the question that you are putting to me. It
goes without saying that accertain amount of the workers were employed
by me it was no specific part of the workers.
Q. So that some of the workers at least who were brought in to Germany against
their will from the occupied countries were used for the manufacture of
munitions of war and weapons.
A. Not just some of them, a great part of them.
Q. Did you ever, in connection with the obtaining of foreign civilian labour
from the occupied countries, participate in any discussions about
making them prisoners of war and then taking them into Germany.
A. I remember that something similar to that was discussed. I remember
that this question came up in connection with Russia and when we retired
from there. The soldiers said that the male population was used to fill
the Russian ranks and they were being armed and it was discussed whether
it would not be better to make them prisoners of war and take them to
Germany instead of having them fight against us.
Q. In other words, you say that you were present at a discussion where it
was proposed that ordinary civilians who were not bearing arms or in
uniform were to be arrested and made prisoners of war as if they had
been combatants.
A. I cannot say it in just this manner but I suppose you have a document
which makes this apparent.
Q. No, but I would like you to rely on your own recollection too, if you
were present as you said you were. But please tell us from your own
memory.
A. Look here, you really must not expect too much from my memory.
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- 22 -
I had a great number of worries but rest assured I would say so if
I remembered that such a discussion had taken place. As far as I know
it was not only a question of committing manpower but also a military
question. With the best intentions I could not swear to it.
Q. I want to show you then a minute of a conference with the Fuehrer which
you signed, dated 8 July 1943 with a No. 17 on it and ask you please
to read it through.
A. This is quite se as Hitler said that in these cases very determined action
had to be taken.
(page 20 of original)
Q. And you did not object to it, I take it?
A. No, I did not object.
Q. I would like to call your attention, if I may, to the fact that the reason
given is that Russian prisoners of war are needed in the amount of
approximately 150,000 to 200,000 for the mines that if these prisoners
could not be released by the Army then action would be taken against the
civilian population?
A. That is what the document says, yes.
Q. So that the basis of the decision, as Explained in the document, was not
to protect the military interests but for the purpose of obtaining needed
labour. Is not that correct?
A. I don't know this exactly but it is a fact that in July 1943 I was not
responsible for coal; as the document sets forth Sauckel and Pleiger
were responsible to execute these orders and that they were to report
to Hitler. As the document furthermore states, I merely requested a copy
of this report for myself.
Q. So that, as I understand it, these Russian civilians that were to be
brought in were not to be used only for the coal mines but also for the
armament industry as well?
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-23- DOC. NO.3720-PS cont'd
USA 220
A. No, I believe that goal in the first degree. It should also be investigated
whether this was ever carried out. You cannot say that every order
that was given by Hitler was always carried out. And I believe that at
this time the Supreme Commanders of the Army Groups had different worries
that just to carry out such measures.
Q. What interests me was that you said that you wanted a copy to be sent to
you and you also state that you did not have coal mines in your jurisdiction
but in fact you did have the armament industry in your jurisdiction
and I ask you whether those workers that were not suitable for coal mines
were not to be put under your supervision for armament work.
A. There are two reasons why I was interested in a copy of this. The reason
you gave is undoubtedly correct. It is evident that only a part, say about
half those workers, wore suitable to work in coal mines. The other half
was available for other purposes. In the Central Planning Board Pleiger
was responsible for the handling of the coal production and then as a member
of the Central Planning Board I was interested whether the manpower
that was promised by Sauckel would be
(page 21 of original)
actually available. This was because coal production was the base of the
total production.
Q. Let me ask you another thing with respect to this memorandum of the 8
July meeting 1943, it is stated in that - and I will read it in German
and then translate it: "The Fuhrer ordered at the same time that those
prisoners of war who are not fit for the mines should immediately be
placed in the Iron industry in the manufacturing and Supply industry and
in the armament industry."
Was that the general policy with respect to the use of prisoners of war?
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A. No. The fact was that the remainder of the workers that could not be
used in coal mining were free for other uses. It was my purpose in this
conference to secure at the same time those workers for other purposes
that could not be used in the coal mines. It was the general line that
Sauckel was responsible for the distribution and allocation of manpower.
I want to add here that it is not certain that Sauckel actually carried
out such a plan.
Q. What I meant to ask you generally is, was it the policy to employ prisoners
of war in the armaments factories?
A. Not only the armament industry came under my jurisdiction but also the
subsidiary industry of the Iron Products industries. And my total competence
was not defined as that of a Minister for Production, as is done
in other countries, but as a Minister for Armaments.
Q. But regardless of your competence or jurisdiction, was it a general
practice to employ prisoners of war in the making of munitions?
A. I believe that prisoners of war were employed in armament factories
but I did not pay any attention to this fact.
Q. Did they include only Russian prisoners of war or did that also include
British, American, French, Polish, Dutch, Belgian, Norwegian
prisoners of war?
A. That includes all prisoners of war. It was not my opinion that I had
any obligation to pay attention to this, and I don't know whether the
conditions which I found in 1942 as far as it concerns prisoners of
war where ever changed during my time.
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(page 22 of original)
Q. Let me understand; when you wanted labour from prisoners of war did
you requisition prisoners of war separately or did you ask for a total
number of workers?
A. Only Schmelter can answer that exactly. As far as the commitment of
prisoner of war labour goes it was effected through employment officers
of the Stalags. I tried several times to increase the total number of
prisoners of war that were occupied in the production at the expense
of the other demand factors.
Q. Will you explain that a little more?
A. In the last phase of production, that is in the year 1914 when everything
collapsed, I had 40% of all prisoners of war employed in the
production. I wanted to have this percentage increased.
Q. And when you say employed in the production you mean in these subsidiary
industries that you have discussed and also in the production of weapons
and minitions, is that right?
A. Yes. That is the total extent of my task.
Q. Did you ever discuss any means of raising the productive capacity
of prisoners of war?
A. Yes. As a matter of fact we sent circulars to the factory managers
in order to tell them how the prisoners of war should be treated so that
their productive capacity could be raised. One circular was sent out in
either April or May 1944. I know that because I just read it. I believe
that it is exemplary so far as the recommendations go for the prisoners
of war.
Q. And did that include also the treatment of prisoners of war who were
working in weapons and minitions factories?
A. This was a general circular that was sent to all the managers of the
factories. You must remember the fact here that some of the armament
industry also produces other goods, take Krupp for instance, in addition
to producing armaments they produce locomotives and other products.
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Doc. No. 3720 PS (cont'd)
-26- USA 220
Q. Did you ever discuss, by the way, the requirements of Krupp for
foreign labor?
A. It is certain that it was reported to me what lack Krupp had in
foreign workers.
Q. Did you ever discuss it with any of the members of the Krupp firm?
(Page 23 of original)
A. I cannot say that exactly but during the time of my activities I
visited the Krupp factory more than once and it is certain that this
was discussed, that is, the lack of manpower.
Q. Did you ever discuss the labor problem with Gustav Krupp von Bohlen
und Holbach?
A. I think that this is out of the question because Krupp was very old
and I only saw him once during the years of my activity. If any such
question come up it was discussed with the responsible directors of
the factory.
Q. Did these directors ask you for foreign labor?
A. It is probable that they reported to me the total needs in manpower.
It is not probable that they informed me about their requirements for
foreign labor unless they had the opinion that at that time German manpower
was not available.
Q. Coming back to the full use of the capacities of prisoners of war,
was it ever suggested in any conference that you know about that the
productive powers of prisoners of war could be increased by giving
jurisdiction over them to the SS?
A. No, I cannot remember.
Q. Did you ever see the minutes of such a meeting? I will show you a
memorandum of a conference of Sauer with the Fuehrer and others, dated
6 March 1944 in Berlin?
A. I cannot say whether this was the case. This conference took place in
March of 1944, that is, during the period of my illness. If there is a
notation on the document - Gesehen Speer - then I say the document after
my illness.
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Doc. No. 3720 PS (cont'd)
-27- USA 220
Q. In connection with your trip to Austria, was it the purpose of your
trip to establish concentration camps close to the side of factories
so that the concentration camp inmates could be readily used as labor
in the new factories?
A. When was that trip to Austria?
Q. Was that in 1941?
A. In 1941? I was not a minister then.
Q. What were you then?
A. I was an architect in 1941. That was not 1941, it must be later.
Q. You had discussions with -
A. I cannot remember the name at the moment.
(Page 24 of original)
Q. Do you know Eigruber?
A. Yes. It must have been about 1943 or 1944 but I don't know exactly.
I will think about it. The fact that we were anxious to use workers
from concentration camps in factories and to establish small concentration
camps near the factories in order to use the manpower that
was available there was a general fact. But it did not only come up
in connection with this trip.
(Whereupon at 1700, 18 October 1945, the hearing was adjourned)
APPROVED:
INTERROGATOR: gez. Curfein Lt.Col.
INTERPRETER: " Ru. Sonnenfeld
REPORTER: " E. Low
Certified true copy.
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