Interrogation of Bertus Gerdes about Kaltenbrunner, including the role of the Gestapo and SD to eliminate opposition, replacement of eastern and Balkan populations with Germans, the monitoring of foreign workers and concentration camp inmates, and the plan to liquidate several camps and kill the inmates in April 1945

COUNTER INTELLIGENCE CORPS NÜRNBERG SUB-REGIONAL OFFICE
20 November 1945
MEMORANDUM TO THE OFFICER IN CHARGE:
Subject: Interrogation of Bertus GERDES
Re: Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Ernst KALTENBRUNNER
1. On November 19, 1945, the above-mentioned Bertus Gerdes former Gaustabsamtsleiter of Upper Bavaria gave himself up into the custody of the Counter Intelligence Corps at Nürnberg.
2. In the interrogation below, Gerdes outlines his contacts with Kaltenbrunner and defines Kaltenbrunner's responsibility for various extermination orders of Allied flyers, subjects of occupied nations, and concentration camp inmates.
What is your name?
Bertus Gerdes.
How old are you?
33 years.
Were you a member of the Hitler Youth?
Yes, in 1929.
Were you a member of the Nazi Party?
Yes, since 1930.
Were you a member of the SA?
Yes, since 1930.
What was your last position in the party ?
I was Gaustabsamtsleiter of Upper Bavaria with office in Munich.
Who was your Chief?
Gauleiter Giesler.
Do you know Ernst Kaltenbrunner?
Yes.
Describe in detail all of your relations with Kaltenbrunner. I met the former SS Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner for the first time in Weimar in the Hotel "Zum Elefanten" on the occasion of a conference of Gaustabsamtsleiters at which the Deputy Gauleiters were also present. That was in spring 1944. At that time Kaltenbrunner reviewed the relationship of the Gestapo and the SD to the Party. He said that the Gestapo was responsible to the Fuehrer mainly for the task of nipping in the bud unrest of any kind which could develop in connection with the war situation. He said that in connection with the SD the Gestapo had created an organization which had infiltrated into every
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public office, every major enterprise and even into the smallest enterprise. He said further that there existed a countless number of confidential agents of whose existence the people in general, as well as the Party organization, had no knowledge. Kalten-brunner said that it was the task of his confidential agents to register all incidents and particularly the state of mind of the people and report them to the RSHA. Kaltenbrunner appealed to the conference to furnish him with qualified and proven political leaders from among the ranks of the Party leadership, for this task in order to guarantee close cooperation in the Party. Kaltenbrunner further said that Gestapo and SD operated in a similar manner in occupied territories and that he was fully informed of activities throughout its areas. He cited as an example the Renault Works in France and described his organization in that armament works.
After the conference I had an opportunity to join Kaltenbrunner in a small circle. There were present besides myself Ober-befehlstleiter Friedrichs (Party Chancellery in Munich) and the Gau Inspector Flemisch. Kaltenbrunner at that time remarked as nearly as I can recall: "Germany must take care that the eastern peoples and a major part of the Balkans and Danube States be compelled to die out through sterilization and annihilation of the leadership classes of these nations. However, in order to assure leadership by the German people and at the same time increase the German population, all German women married and unmarried up to the age of 35 must be compelled if they do not already have four children to produce at least four children by acceptable pure racial German men. It does not matter whether such men are married. Families which already possess four children must furnish their men for this action".
In December 1944 or January 1945, I had an opportunity to see a secret decree issued by Kaltenbrunner in the office of Gauleiter Giesler from a courier in my presence and after I had been permitted to read it it was destroyed in accordance with the classification to be destroyed after reading. The order which was signed by Kaltenbrunner read approximately as follows: "In agreement with the Reichsfuehrer SS I have brought about and directed all higher police officers that all Germans shall go unpunished who in the future participate in the persecution and annihilation of enemy aircrews who parachute down".
Giesler told me that Kaltenbrunner was in constant touch with him because he was greatly worried about the attitude of the foreign workers and especially inmates of concentration camps
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Dachau, Muehldorf and Landsberg which were in the path of the approaching Allied armies. On a Tuesday in the middle of April 1945, I received a telephone call from Gauleiter Giesler asking me to be available for a conversation that night. In the course of our personal conversation that night, I was told by Giesler that he had received a directive from Kaltenbrunner by order of. the Fuehrer to work out a plan without delay for the liquidation of the concentration camp at Dachau and the two Jewish labor camps in Landsberg and Muehldorf. The Directive proposed to liquidate the two Jewish labor camps at Landsberg and Muehldorf by use of the German Luftwaffe, since the construction area of these camps had previously been the targets of repeated enemy air attacks. This action received the code name of "Wolke A 1" (Cloud A 1).
I was directed by Giesler to take up connections with General Galland regarding the execution of this plan. I had not met General Gall'and up to the time he stayed at the airport of Riem, therefore we invited him to dinner the next day at Soehaus (Kleinhesecloher See, Englischer Garten) together with a very small party of people. During the meal only questions of a general nature were discussed and the use of the new jet propelled fighter plane. On this occasion I was to agree on a date with Galland so that we could discuss the above mentioned operation. The conversation however never took place.
I attempted repeatedly to get in touch with men at the Fuehrer's Headquarters such as Walkenhorst, chief of the personal staff of Bormann, and Treitsch, go-between officer for Himmler and Bormann. I was finally able to make these calls although both were very brief. Walkenhorst informed me that he knew nothing of such an order by the Fuehrer, however, that he was going to make detailed inquiries and would call back. This second call did not materialize. The connection with Treitsch was very faint blit he informed me that Kaltenbrunner was Himmler's deputy and that we had to comply absolutely with his directives.
Since I was not able to obtain the desired information from either of these two men, I tried to dissuade the Gauleiter from execution of this abominable plan. Finally Gauleiter Giesler informed me that I would have to let my conscience be my guide in the execution of this directive.
I was certain that I would never let this directive be carried out. As the action Wolke A 1 should have become operational already for some time, I was literally swamped by couriers from Kaltenbrunner and moreover I was supposed to have discussed the de-
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tails of the Muehldorf and Landsberg actions in detail with the two Kreisleiters concerned. The couriers who were in most cases SS officers usually SS Lieutenants, gave me terse and strict orders to read and initial. The orders threatened me with the most terrible punishment including execution if I did not comply with them. However, I could always excuse my failure to execute the plan because of bad flying weather and lack of gasoline and bombs. Therefore, Kaltenbrunner ordered to have Jews in Landsberg marched to Dachau in order to include them in the Dachau extermination operations, and that the Muehldorf action was to be carried out by the Gestapo.
Kaltenbrunner also ordered an operation—Wolkenbrand—for the concentration camp Dachau which provided that the inmates of the concentration camp at Dachau were to be liquidated by poison with the exception of Aryan nationals of the Western Powers.
Gauleiter Giesler received this order direct from Kaltenbrunner and discussed in my presence the procurement of the required amounts of poison with Dr. Harrfeld, the Gau Health Chief. Dr. Harrfeld promised to procure these quantities when ordered and was advised to await my further directions. As I was determined to prevent the execution of this plan in any event, I gave no further instructions to Dr. Harrfeld.
The inmates of Landsberg had hardly been delivered at Dachau when Kaltenbrunner sent a courier declaring the action Wolkenbrand was operational.
I prevented the execution of the Wolke A 1 and Wolkenbrand by giving Geisler the reason that the front was too close and asked him to transmit this on to Kaltenbrunner.
Kaltenbrunner therefore issued directives in writing to Dachau to transport all Western European prisoners by truck to Switzerland and to march the remaining inmates into Oetztal (Tyrol), where the final liquidation of these prisoners was to take place without fail.
The Gauleiter informed me that Kaltenbrunner's office was literally enraged when I did not set upon the release of the code work Wolkenbrand and he informed me in the strictest confidence that I would have to be extremely careful, since the Gestapo was after me. It was clear to me from Kaltenbrunner's threats that my failure to execute his orders in regard to Operations Wolke A 1 and Wolkenbrand would result in not only my personal extermination but also that of my wife and four children. Giesler insisted that I leave my home in Munich at once and stay in the un-
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derground command posts of the Gauleiter under his personal protection. 1
On April 27, the Gauleiter made it possible for me to leave Munich under the pretext of official business in order to look after my family whom I unfortunately did not find again. I did not return to Munich.
10. Q. Did you have any further contact with Kaltenbrunner ?
A. No.
/t/ JOHANNES IMHOFF Special Agent.
I, Bertus Gerdes, being first duly sworn declare that I made the above statements voluntarily and that I was not under compulsion to make these statements. I furthermore declare that they are true and complete to the best of my knowledge and conscience and that they describe the facts such as they occurred.
/t/ Bertus Gerdes Subscribed and sworn to before me this 18th day of December 1945.
Captain A. Wulff, Infantry, AUS