I am under the impression that we have other concentration camp commandants who felt the same way about it. And they instructed their staff, not so much the guards, to feel the same way. After the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps was incorporated into the WVHA as Amtsgruppe D many commanders were transferred or re-assigned. They were re-assigned due to corruption, while their criminal character remained undetected, and that was the reason why the Kommandantur was only re-assigned or transferred as far as it was involved in this embezzlement and corruption.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean to tell us that you believe today that there was no national plan for the extermination of the Jews which started at the top level of the Reich?
A No, I don't want to say that, your Honor. I would have come back to that.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you already came to it. You suggested that this was all the work of a few political malefactors, villans, in the concentration camps and that it wasn't a national policy. Do you mean that?
A Your Honor, what I mean to say is that this was not a national policy, to exterminate any concentration camps as a matter of principle. That is to say, that the concentration camps were not merely an institution to exterminate every undesirable enemy. One has to see these things in their various phases.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, no one would believe for a minute that it was the policy to exterminate all concentration camp inmates. They were too valuable. They were the means by which Germany expected to win the war but do you recognize today a national policy which started out from Himmler, if not from Hitler, to exterminate all the Jews in Germany.
A There can be no doubt about it, your Honor.
DR. BELZER: Excuse me, your Honor, may I interrupt you for a minute?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course; I interrupted you.
DR. BELZER: I asked the witness if he knew anything about the murder and mistreatment on the part of the guard personnel. The witness deliberately referred to murder and mistreatment outside of the extermination program which is known to you, the extermination policy against the Jews and he only spoke of the smaller things in the concentration camps because I want to deal -- touch upon other things.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean the minor exterminations?
BY DR. BELZER: Yes, to say the single occurrences. Are you through with your answer, witness?
Q In the statements made by the witness Bielski on 14 April 1947 you, yourself, were charged with having committed two murders in the Concentration Camp at Auschwitz. You were alleged to have killed a Jewish inmate in the winter of 1943 or 1944 by breaking his skull with a brick and you are furthermore alleged to have used your method on a Polish Jew by the name of Simon Weiss, whom you caught while he was boiling potatoes and you broke his skull. I ask you, witness, did you do what the witness Bielski said?
Q Were you ever in the concentration camp of Auschwitz as labor assignment leader?
Q Did you at any time in any other official capacity belong to the camp personnel of Auschwitz?
Q Did you at any time visit one of the three protective custody camps in Auschwitz?
A Yes. In the Summer of 1943, at that time there was a labor assignment leader conference in Auschwitz. That was on Friday and Saturday. I did not participate in the conference on Friday because I had to sit at Oranienburg so that in case Pohl should call there would Court No. II, Case No. 4.be somebody there.
That Friday evening I drove to Kattowitz in the night train. I was picked up there and at eight o'clock in the morning I was in Auschwitz. After the breakfast we were taken to the protective custody camp in a bus. There were approximately 20 of us. We visited the Barracks of some inmates which was built of stones and immediately after that, we visited the kitchen of the inmates. All of the inmates were out to work. Then we visited a horse breeding place near the protective custody camp and we also visited a barracks where some inmates were knitting with salvaged wool.
Q While on that visit to the protective custody camp did you go on a motor bike?
A No, I was in there approximately a half an hour or one hour altogether.
Q You stated before that you were in Auschwitz twice. The first time you just described in the Summer of 1943 and then another time in November of 1944. Would you please describe to the Tribunal the duration of and the cause for that second visit to Auschwitz?
A With reference to the first visit I would like to say that immediately after the visit, after the barracks and the kitchen, we drove then up to the Buna factory and we visited that factory there and in the afternoon we went to see the agricultural plant there on some horses. The same evening Maurer and I left for Berlin. The second time was in November 1944. That was the reason why I had gone. My wife during the war had an abortion three times. That was known to Gluecks and he told me that there was a gynecologist in Auschwitz by the name of Clauberg and he proposed to me that I should take my wife down there and have her examined by him. He, himself, contacted Clauberg and Clauberg wrote to us that we should go to Koenigshuette, which is a town in Upper Silesia and that we had to be there in a special hospital on a special day, maybe it was a Sunday, and that he wanted to examine my wife there. We arrived at Koenigshuette in the morning.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the translation has left a wrong im Court No. II, Case No. 4.pression here which might be serious.
I think the witness meant to use the word "miscarriage", rather than abortion. What about the translation?
A Yes, your Honor. "Miscarriage" was the word. In that particular hospital we did not see Clauberg and his secretary told us he was in Auschwitz; thereupon we went to Auschwitz together and we spent the night in a hotel near the station which was a hotel operated by the Waffen SS. That hotel was within three kilometers from the camp. Thereupon, I called up the camp commander, a man called Baer and asked him where Clauberg was. He told me that I could see Clauberg the following day at noon in the Fuehrerheim and I actually went there the following day at noon together with my wife and we spoke to Clauberg.
THE PRESIDENT: I think this answer involved too many details. The interesting fact is he went there but everything that happened is of no consequence.
Q Witness, maybe you will limit yourself. I want you to answer briefly. On that time did you go into the protective custody camp of Auschwitz?
Q Did you have any connection or contact with the camp personnel?
A Yes. On Monday morning I had a short conversation with Baer who drove me all of the way up to the protective custody camp and he showed me the bomb damage there which had been occasioned by enemy planes dropping bombs.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A ... and then I drove through the agriculture installation there by car, and I went to Auschwitz late in the afternoon, the protective custody camp itself I did not enter.
Q Can you tell the Tribunal the name of the Labor Assignments Leader of the concentration camp?
A The Labor Assignments Leader was first of all Hauptsturmfuehrer Heinz Schwarz; later on it was Obersturmfuehrer Sell. As far as Witness Bielski is concerned--the witness here--I would like to point out the following thing. Bielski declared that I, when he saw me at the time, was Hauptsturmfuehrer. At that time I had not reached that rank. Bielski apparently has got me mixed up with Unterscharfuehrer Sommer, because on Page 365 of the German record he states this Unterscharfuehrer--that he saw him accompanied by a Labor Assignments Leader who also was an N.C.O. I would like to state that in every concentration camp there is only one Labor Assignments Leader. He then states that he saw this Sommer later on accompanied by his superior, a Sturmbannfuehrer. He states that the Sturmbannfuehrer was in charge of the Department of Labor assignments of the inmates of the entire concentration camp of Auschwitz. There was no such Sturmbannfuehrer there. He further states that at the time he saw Sommer with another two NCO's, he showed up at that place on his motor bike. Apparently he remembers one NCO and some more NCO's. On Page 380 of the German record he said that man Sommer who had to distribute labor to the commanders of the assignments and had to carry out the supervision himself and the control. That, however, was never the task of the Labor Assignments Leaders, but it was the task of the labor supervisors, so to say. They were NCO's in the concentration camps and also were under the officers in the protective custody camps. They had to supervise them in their place--in the working place.
Q Witness, the Prosecution last Saturday, while cross-examining the Witness Rammler, stated the assumption that due to the size of the concentration camp Auschwitz, it was necessary to have frequent confer Court No. II, Case No. 4.ences with the Labor Assignments Leaders.
What do you have to say about the Prosecution's statement?
A The Labor Assignments Leader in other Labor concentration camps, as well as Auschwitz, who was the expert for the concentration camp commandant concerning labor assignments questions. I myself couldn't have given him orders about Labor Assignments concentration camps because, as far as that is concerned, they came from the camp commandant. The activity of the Labor Assignments Leader himself was a desk job. That is to say, the Labor Assignments Leader sat at the desk in a manner, if I had to do anything with him in writing, as far as my activity is concerned, and I also did that and have had no reason to go to Auschwitz for that.
Q We shall now come to a different subject. Witness, what do you know...
PRESIDENT: Before you start the new subject we will take the recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q Witness, before I continue your examination, I would like to give you the possibility to briefly clear up two misunderstandings which have arisen so far with the defense. His Honor, Judge Phillips, has asked you before whether you had seen pictures of the starving people in the camp Bergen-Belsen. You answered this question in the affirmative.
Q Therefore, you did not see the corpses themselves, but you only saw the film which has been shown here?
A Yes, I have only seen the film there, and there I saw the corpses for the first time.
Q You have also stated before in connection with the heavy workers' ration cards which were to be issued in the concentration camps, you have spoken of the economic offices. You were probably referring to the food offices, weren't you, but you were not referring to any agencies which had anything to do with the economic enterprises of the WVHA?
A No. I was referring to the agencies which were subordinated to the Reich Food Ministry that were locally competent. They were the locally competent food offices for the civilian population.
Q Witness, what did you know about the execution of medical experiments on concentration-camp inmates?
AAs far as I can recall I knew since the summer of 1942 that medical experiments on human beings were carried out in the concentration camps. Just how the assignments were given and the results of these experiments, the manner in which these experiments were carried out, I did not know. I never saw anything about that, nor have I ever heard anything about it. On one occasion I heard just what type of experiment was concerned, something about the malaria experiments of Professor Schilling at Dachau. The plant manager of the German Equipment Works complained that from his plant skilled workers had been removed by Professor Schilling, who then were unable to work for six weeks.
That was during the time when they would be at Professor Schilling's disposal for experiments. The plant manager at the time requested that from the Office D-II these things should be prohibited in the future. At the time Maurer said that these experiments had been ordered by Himmler or Pohl, and that therefore he would be unable to change anything in that. Otherwise I never had any contact whatsoever with any experiments of any kind.
Q What did you know about these sterilization measures which were carried out on concentration-camp inmates?
A During my activity in the Office D-II I did not hear anything about castrations and sterilizations.
Q In order to enable you to keep your promises which you have given the President this morning, I now would like you to tell us what you know about the special treatment of concentration--camp inmates.
A In February 1943 in the concentration camp Neuengamme a meeting of labor assignment officers took place, and there the reports which I mentioned this morning about the labor assignments of concentration -camp inmates were discussed, on special forms.
The labor assignment offices were given basic instructions just how these reports were to be submitted. That is, how the synopses were to be formulated. In the course of the ensuing discussion the words "special treatment" were mentioned. One labor Assignment officer asked where the inmates which were subjected to "special treatment" should be listed, i.e., whether they should be included in the general figures giving the mortality rates, or if they were to be specially listed in this survey. Maurer did not make any decision in this matter, but he said that the decision would be reached later on. We then returned to Oranienburg.
At Oranienburg I asked Maurer what "special treatment" actually meant. Maurer told me then that this was the killing of insane persons who were incurably insane who were located within the concentration camps, and he told me that a commission of physicians had been sent by the Reich Chancellery to the concentration camps, and that the selection of these people was being carried out very carefully.
That was the first time that I heard anything about "special treatment" in Amtsgruppe D.
THE PRESIDENT: Was that the last that you heard?
WITNESS: No, Your Honor. I shall refer to the subject later on.
THE PRESIDENT: Don't forget.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q. Did you heard anything about the Euthanasia Program, or did you hear anything about the Action 14-f-13? (Question repeated)
A. The word Euthanasia became known to me for the first time after the capitulation had already taken place. The designation 14-f-13, which apparently was a filemark, does not tell us very much. I cannot recall ever having heard of it during the time of my activity with the Office D-2 in this connection. I only knew the general concept of mercy death; that is, Euthanasia.
In the year 1940, at the hospital where I was located, I came into contact for the first time with this program. At that time this problem was discussed in the hospital pro and con.
Later on, the film "I accuse" was shown in all movie theatres. This film dealt also with that problem, and of course it dealt with it in the positive sense, which was the desire of the State.
Q. Witness, did you, officially or unofficially, make any observations that in the concentration camps certain categories of inmates, like Jews, Gypies, or Russian prisoners of war, were considered to be inferior races, or anti-social elements, and that they were exterminated?
A. No; I never heard that these groups of inmates were considered as anti-social elements. Under anti-social elements, in my opinion--and that is what was mentioned in the newspapers several times -- one considered people who refused to accomodate Germans who had been bombed out, or people who had hoarded food, and similar people.
In such cases the newspapers would then write "because of his anti-social behavior and attitude, he was turned over to a concentration camp." However, in connection with the groups of persons which have been mentioned, I never heard that expression.
Q. Witness, did you know that the concentration camps within the Reich territory were to be cleared of Jews?
A. Yes; Himmler, on the 29th of September, 1942, inspected the concentration camp Sachsenhausen. At that time he was accompanied, as far as I can recall that, by Greeks and Maurer. All the remaining members of agencies were given the strict order for that day not to leave the agencies; that is, from eight o'clock in the morning until seven o'clock in the evening. I believe that was the time when Himmler left. He were actually restricted to our agencies, and we were not allowed to leave them. As far as I am informed, Himmler inspected the concentration camp and also the economic enterprises there. On the following day Maurer compiled a very extensive list of things which Himmler had ordered, and he did that by order of Gluecks. On the fifth of October, by virtue of the orders of Himmler, he issued a letter which has been presented by the Prosecution as Document 3677PS, Exhibit 128, in Document Book 5. This letter states that the concentration camps of the Reich were to be cleared of Jews, and that the Jews were to be transferred to Lublin and Auschwitz.
To the best of my recollection, at that time, there were in the concentration camps within the Reich territory, with the exception of Auschwitz, approximately 1,500 Jewish inmates. They were then afterwards actually transported to Auschwitz, with the exception of 200 inmates who were used as a masons detachment in Buchenwald, where a rifle factory was built for the armament industry.
Q. As far as the order was concerned which cleared the concentration camps in the Reich of Jews who were transported to the East, did that not give you any cause for misgivings?
A. No, at the time I asked Maurer just what the reason for this measure was, what purpose it had; because, after all, these people were in concentration camps, and therefore they could not cause any damage there of any kind. Maurer said that Himmler had ordered that Jews were to be located exclusively in the concentration camps in the East, and that, therefore, this measure would have to be carried out.
In this connection, I would like to point out that also in the camps in the East frequently groups of persons were transferred to camps within the Reich territory; for example, Polish or Czech inmates who were sent into the Reich in order to prevent the danger of escape.
THE PRESIDENT: You said that Poles and Czechs were sent into the Reich to prevent them escaping?
WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor; they were sent from the concentration camps in the East -- let us say Auschwitz in this case. They were transferred to the Reich in order to keep them somewhat more distant from their homelands and, therefore, to have less risk of their escaping.
THE PRESIDENT: I see BY DR. BELZER:
Q. Witness, what did you know about the Action Reinhardt? And what did you have to do with it?
A. In the spring of 1943 the branch of training of inmates was dissolved because in the meantime it had been realized that the war would not be over as soon as had bean previously expected, and it was discovered that the work of the inmates in the armament industry was more necessary than to have them work in the construction industry. Stumpf, who worked in this branch, was transferred to a combat unit. Before he left the office, by order of Maurer, he turned over to me a depot of watches. In the ground floor of our office building there was a large chamber where sealed boxes and other containers were located. Stumpf told me at the time that these containers were filled with watches which had to be repaired in the watch repairshop at Sachsenhuasen. At the time I already knew that such a watch repairshop existed. I had to supervise this stock of watches from Spring, 1943, until the spring of 1944. As far as I can remember, during this time we received four or five shipments of sealed containers which were filled with watches. As far as I can recall, we received them from Hauptsturmfuehrer Mellmer from the office treasury of the WVHA. However, I believe that we also received watches directly from Lublin and Auschwitz.
Whenever they arrived the watches were counted, put in sealed containers, and stored in the storage room downstairs, A non-commissioned officer was directly in charge of the chamber. When the watch repair master in the concentration camp Sachsenhausen needed further watches to be repaired, he would come to see us and in his presence and in the presence of the non-commissioned officer a container would be opened and the watches were counted; then they were turned over to this watch maker. Then these watches were repaired in the watch repair shop in Sachsenhausen. At that shop approximately 80 prisoners were working. After having been repaired, the watches would again be returned to Amt. D-II. There they would be stored. These spare parts for these watches were procured at the expense of the Reich and also the cleaning materials and the necessary tools for the watch repair shop. Already at that time when taking over the stock this matter became know to me as the Action Reinhardt, or a little later, I cannot recall. Of clothing, machines, shoes, glasses, gold from teeth, and so on from this action I have heard here for the first time in this court.
Q. Did you know about the origin of these watches?
A. Well, when I took over this stock and this depot I asked Mauer where these watches were coming from. Mauer told me at the time that these watches had been confiscated from the enemy. They now had become the property of the Reich and every theft of any one of these subjects would be very severely punished. Actually, in the Spring of 1944, a member of the watch repair shop --- he was a member of the SS -- was sentenced to five years in jail, because he had exchanged various watches. That is to say, he had put inferior watches in place of better watches which he took away. In this connection, I would also like to say that we were dealing with watches of all trade marks. We had wrist watches. We had pocket watches. There were modern watches. Then we had watches which could only be wound up with a key. Then we had wall clocks. We had alarm clocks. That is to say, we had clocks of all types. They were old and they were second hand. On some of these watches we could still see the trade marks.
A. Therefore, I assume from your answer that from the type of watches which were being repaired here one could not draw the conclusion that these watches had been taken away from inmates who had been killed?
A. No, that assumption could not be drawn. I myself tried on one occasion to see an order according to which these watches had been confiscated. As far as I can recall, I talked to Melmer about that on one or two occasions. As far as I remember, it was Melmer told me at that time that these watches had been confiscated by virtue of a decree which the State Secretary Reinhardt in the Reich Ministry of Finance had issued, and that was the reason why this action had been given the name of Action Reinhardt.
Q. Did you yourself receive a fountain pen or a watch from these stocks?
A. No, never. By order of Himmler, these watches were distributed to the combat units of the SS and they were also given to the units of the Luftwaffe and the Navy. They were distributed without any charge. The same thing was done with the fountain pens. I myself never received any of the watches out of this action.
Q. After these detailed questions, I want to come back to your actual activity with Office D-II; in your position with the DEST or in Office D-II did you ever have the thought that the work which was being done by inmates was slave labor?
A. No, I have already stated that in the concentration camps and in the allocation of labor I saw a certain type of work for the inmates. A certain man by the name of Scharnweber, who was a legal expert, was working at the DEST when I entered there. His deputy was Dr. Schneider. He was a lawyer who worked in the Legal Department. In the DEST at that time Dr. Salpeter was a business manager. He also was a lawyer. The Protective Custody Specialist for the RSHA was Dr. Berndorf. He also was a lawyer with the Criminal Police Office. The Specialist Dr. Andechser was active. He also was a lawyer. I therefore could not believe that something irregular was being done here and that the work which was demanded of the inmates was slave labor.
Q. The President of the Court has stated towards the Defendant Pohl the Tribunal sees slave labor in the fact that the inmates were forced to carry out work without receiving a single cent for their work. What do you have to say about that?
A. It is correct that the inmates up to the beginning of the year, 1942, approximately hardly received any money at all, and then very gradually they received some money for their work. I do not know just why this was done. I had to assume at the time that this was done in assimilation to measures which were taken by the judicial service, which I found when I entered the DEST. One of the decrees set forth that the amount of payment for inmate labor was to be turned over the the Reich. However, I believe that for the conception of slave labor it would also be necessary that these people had only been brought into the concentration camp just because labor was needed. However, I am still convinced today that the inmates in the concentration camps had either violated some laws or they were automatically arrested because otherwise they were endangering the security of the occupation troops. I believe that this opinion of mine is supported by the document which the prosecution has presented, 1063-PS. It is in Document Book XII. It is Exhibit 340. This is a decree of the Chief of the Security Police of the SD and it is signed by Mueller, the Chief of the Gestapo Office. This decree states under paragraph 1, "Effective immediately, that is, until the 1st of February, 1943, workers from the East, if they have broken their contracts or if they have tried to escape from their work, should be sent to the concentration camp which is nearest to the spot where they are caught." Well, this also happened to any German who broke his working contract and who did not show up for work. Therefore, this was nothing in particular.
THE PRESIDENT: Don't you see any difference between a German who refuses to work for the Reich and a Pole who refuses to work for Germany, the country who had overrun his native land and had destroyed it? Do you see any difference between these two?
WITNESS: Your Honor, unfortunately, I am not a lawyer, and, therefore, I cannot judge this matter from the point of view of International Law.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't want it to be according to International Law. I just want it according to human common sense.
WITNESS: My opinion is, Your Honor, that the population of an occupied country can be used for that sort of work.
THE PRESIDENT: I see. You understand then that if Germany overruns a country it can force the people of that country to make munitions of war to be used against their own people?
WITNESS: I have heard here, Your Honor, that prisoners of war were not to be used for the manufacture of ammunition. However, at that time I thought that the population of a country could be used for work.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean to make bullets to be shot at their own people --- Let's put it so you can't misunderstand it -- you think it was all right for the civilian population of Poland or any other country to be forced to make guns to shoot against their own people? That seems all right to you, does it?
WITNESS: Well, Your Honor, at the time we were not at war with Poland any more. Poland had been conquered.
THE PRESIDENT: Had you concluded a peace with Poland?
WITNESS: No, as far as I know, the Polish Government had escaped from the country and no Government existed any more in Poland with whom we could make a peace.
THE PRESIDENT: Poland had an Army, not much of an Army, but they had an army in the field at that time, did it not?
WITNESS: I don't know anything about that.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, this is an interesting comment you make. It was your idea that after the --- was it 21 days of the Polish Campaign -- about 21 days it took to overrun Poland, didn't it?
A. Yes, your Honor.
Q. It is your opinion that at the end of those twenty-one days Germany owned Poland; is that right?
A. No, your Honor.
Q. Well, it's your opinion that Germany owned the Poles? That's what you just told me.
Q. Well, what do you call it when you say that they could be forced to make war munitions to be used against their allies, if not against themselves? Don't you call that owning the Poles?
A. No, your Honor. I believe, your Honor, that it can be demanded that these people should work. The question then remains where they should work and what kind of work they should do.
Q. They must work for nothing?
A. No, the Poles in Germany who came to Germany as voluntary workers always received their pay.
Q. We're talking about the people that you say can be compelled to work. You say you have a right to compel the people of Poland to work for Germany--not the people who came voluntarily?
A. Up to now I understood your question in a general sense, your Honor. The Poles who were turned over to the concentration camps actually did not receive anything for their work for a certain period of time. However, I have already said that this condition changed after a while and that even these Poles were to receive a certain amount of money. Of course, this was not in any relation to the amount of work which they performed, but -
Q. Wait a minute. You're getting away from the point. You believe that Germany had a right to compel the conquered Poles to work; to compel them, I say?
A. I think yes, your Honor.
Q. And to work for nothing; without pay? It's getting a little difficult, isn't it?
A. Your Honor, would you like me to answer this question in general?
Q. No, not in general. This is your own proposition. I am seeing how good it is and how much you'll stand behind it. It was all right for Germany to compel the Polish civilians--to compel them--to work for Germany. Now, without pay?
A. No, your Honor.
Q. That's what was done, wasn't it?
A. Of course, they were to be paid for their work.
Q. Were they paid for the work?
A. If they came voluntarily, yes.
Q. No, no. You're just running me around the ring. I'm not talking about the ones who came voluntarily. The ones who were compelled to work for Germany because they had been conquered, were they paid?
A. Your Honor, the Poles were not turned over to the concentration camps because they had been conquered.
Q. Well, you just referred me to this document, Exhibit 340.
A. Yes, your Honor. It states here that the foreign workers or those from the East who had broken their contracts, who had escaped, that is to say, workers who were used at a certain place of work and who had left that work, whenever they were apprehended again they were to be turned over to a concentration camp. However, it goes on to say, Your Honor, that all inmates, if they are capable of working, if it can be done factually and from the humane point of view, are to be turned over to the concentration camp which is closest in the vicinity.
Q. That's right.
A. In my opinion that says that everyone who sends them there has to deal with a very difficult task as to whether the case of the escaping or their breaking of the contract is such a severe crime that this measure can be taken. Therefore, it seems to me that not all those who escaped were sent to concentration camps.
Q. All right, here's your own proposition. If you couldn't compel them to work for Germany, in Poland, if they refused or rebelled, then you sent them to concentration camps where they couldn't refuse or rebel because they were under guard; and that, you think, was all right?
A. I didn't quite understand your question, Your Honor.
The translation didn't come through very clearly.
Q. If Germany could not compel captured Polish civilians to work for Germany in Poland or wherever they were captured, that is, if they refused or rebelled, then you sent them to concentration camps where they could be compelled to work?
A. Well, this document doesn't mention that, your Honor.
Q. Never mind the document. What do you say about it? Is that all right?
A. I understand you to say, your Honor, that when they escaped from Poland or if they tried to cause a revolution -
Q. Or if they just wouldn't work for you.
A. No, then in my opinion not. Then, of course, one could not send them to a concentration camp in my opinion.
Q. Well, this document says "or who have broken contracts." You mean a contract with a conquered people? Well, let's not get into that. That is a little involved. Do you think it is ever right to force people to work?
A. During a war which will bring a result of life or death, I believe that can be done.
Q. And you think it is all right to capture people, civilians, not soldiers, to capture civilians, compel them to work against their own nation and pay them nothing?
A. If they are arrested just because they are potential workers, then, of course, that is not correct. However, if they have been arrested because they have violated laws and then they are forced to do some work, then I believe, your Honor, that is quite all right.