Do you remember that?
A. Yes, I also know what they were used for. They were used for these surface constructions, bunker constructions. They were used if one was to construct a shaft in order to remove sand, from the finished vaults, There was a difficulty in providing these miners, and as far as I can remember, they were people who were then later on trained by the SS and put at our disposal for that purpose.
Q Do you know that Milch wanted miners from Berchtesgaden?
A Yes, but I don't believe that he got them.
Q Do you know if these miners from Berchtesgaden were Germans or if they were foreigners or concentration camp inmates?
A They could only have been Germans, and no foreigners and no concentration camp inmates, because only skilled German personnel was allowed to work on the Obersalzberg.
Q If, during that conference, it was mentioned that miners were wanted by the SS from Croatian and Italian engineers, were those to be foreigners?
A No, I am sure that they must have been Germans too. In Italy, for instance, they were constructing the fortifications, and as I mentioned before, they were to be trained by the SS and they were all Germans.
Q Do you mean concentration camp inmates?
A No, free Germans.
Q Do you know that Hitler proposed to have ten thousand miners trained by the SS?
A Yes, I remember I have heard about that, but I can only remember vaguely.
Q We already mentioned Mr. Kammler before. In other words, he was not a leading member of the Jaegerstab?
A No, as far as I can remember he was only there once during the trip we took.
Q Was Schmelter a member of the fighter staff, the Jaegerstab?
A Yes, I believe he was.
1632 a
Q. Wasn't he under the GBA?
A. Schmelter was from the Armament Industry as far as I can remember.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal is in recess until tomorrow morning 0930 hours.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 11 March 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 11 larch, 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their sets.
The Honorable, the Judges cf Military Tribunal 2.
Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
HOLFGANG VORWALD - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, yesterday we spoke about the single members of the Jaegerstab. Do you know Herr Schlemm?
A Yes, I do.
Q Was he a permanent leading member of the Jaegerstab?
A Whether he was a permanent member cf the Jaegerstab, I do not know. However, he participated often in their session; also in the trips which the Jaegerstab took.
Q That was Baumann-Schlemm, wasn't it, the representative of Dorsch?
A Yes.
Q Who was it generally specking within the air armament industry and ever since the be inning of the war concerning the constructions for the war industry -- was that the GL or who was it?
A No, the GL had nothing to do with it. The GL could only make the requirement or to have certain things constructed or extended, new constructions, etc.
Q Who w o it who actually ordered those constructions of the air armament industry? For instance, in Berlin.
A. At that time I had not yet taken over my office and I did not know who did it at the time.
1634-A
Q. Who was it after 1941 when you were in that office?
A. At that time the construction works were carried out by the armament ministry.
Q. What was Speer's position with respect to the construction work in Berlin?
A. He was the construction inspector.
Q. In other words, he was the highest construction manager in Berlin?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Milch tell you when the Jaegerstab was founded that he, apart from the plan concerning the fighter program, wanted to increase it by using the Speer ministry concerning this program? Do you know anything about that?
A. He told me that he wanted to withdraw slowly but surely from that air armament.
Q. Also for personal reasons?
A. Yes. There were serious differences of opinion between him and Goering, and these probably moved him to withdraw slowly from this whole matter. All his proposals which he had made since the end of 1941, since he took over his office, which aimed at reinforcing the fighter force, the defensive force, and to which nobody would listen, neither the Jaegerstab nor Goering nor Hitler, made him try to get out of the whole matter.
Q. Witness, do you know that Milch, because of the evaluation of the situation, that is, a refusal of a defensive war by the higher leadership, had a long series of discussions concerning the change of the leadership of the Reich?
A. Yes, he told me about that, too.
Q. Would you tell us in more detail about it?
A. The fundamental discussion took place after the Stalingrad affair.
with the Fuehrer as he told me later on. That was a very long discussion which lasted into the week hours of the night.
1635 A
Q. I do not moan that conference, Witness. I mean other discussions concerning the higher leadership of the Reich and how it could be changed.
A. Yes, Milch mentioned that also.
Q. Do you know anything about that fact with reference to the Reichs Cabinet, Reichs Chamber?
A. Yes, ho wanted to have the Reichs government placed on a broader basis and he wanted it to be a real government which was supported by the confidence of the people on a broader basis.
Q. Is it correct that that was the reason why he had discussions with Goering?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the purpose of this whole thing with reference to Hitler.
A. He wanted to dam the dictatorship and institute a new leadership of the state affairs and also the Wehrmacht.
Q. Did that happen for the purpose of the continuation of the aggressive war or for the purpose of concluding a peace?
A. The latter is the point. He had the notion that on a political basis a peace-treaty might be come to which would be bearable. Therefore, it was necessary that the aggressive measures be ceased and that a defensive war should be started in all fields. The military situation according to the Fieldmarshal could only with strong defense be survived, that is militaristically.
Q. Do you know about his attempts. Did they ever succeed in doing anything about it?
A. No, he always failed.
Q. Can you tell in how far Hitler was against the plan of a defensive war with reference to the fighter force?
A. Yes. The thing was in the following manner, I will give an example for it. The Jet-propelled, the ME-262. That new plane had been declared a. pure fighter plane, and developed as such by the GL and all offices interested in it. All efforts were made in order with respect to this size of plane for us to produce it as a fighter. Hitler had ordered that it should be used at the front not as a fighter but rather as a "Blitz" bomber. All objections made by the GL, and also by the Air Industry that the plane could not be used as a bomber, and that it was against its nature to be used as a bomber were of no avail. Hitler ordered, it will only be used as a "blitz" bomber.
In spite of that fact, again and again the GL and also the general of the fighter arms, General Gallant, and also other generals and persons tried via Goering and even Hitler himself to change his mind. However, nobody succeeded in doing so; on the contrary Hitler issued an order prohibiting strictly every discussion on ME-262, (Messerschmidts 262.) In other words, all discussions amongst comrades and in masses, were a 11 forbidden.
Q. All of that occurred in order to eliminate every sort of discussion so that the plane will only be used as a bomber?
A. Yes. This was to prevent everybody in the office to think about this plane ever having been considered a fighter-plane. Hitler wished to express his resolution finally: "This plane will be used as a "blitz" bomber." According to my opinion this decision considerably slowed down the construction of the planes by at least half a year, or six months, and that is how the German fighter force received quite a blow.
Q. Witness, do you know that even as far as -- or as late as 1944 the construction of bombers for aggressive purposes had been ordered? Again and again?
A. Yes, and even after the creation of the Jaegerstab. I remember a conference which we had with Goering in Berchtesgaden, that we were in some manner interested, at the end of May 1944, in which generals from the general staff, General Gallant and General Pelz, who wore of the general fighter force, the GL, and also Morton and Sauer from the armament Ministry, and they all participated in the discussion. It was a discussion of a program, and the point was, that Goering has to be reported to concerning this now program draft, which had been drawn up together with the Jaegerstab and the GL, and after a long discussion with the Air Industry. In this program the particular in-crease of the fighters and night fighters had been expressed. It was a purely defensive program.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Bergold, may I interrupt for a moment.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Does not it seem that this is all rather far afield, the program with reference to the bomber construction and the fighter construction. Now for the last ton minutes the witness has boon describing a certain program, and the name of Milch has not boon mentioned once. We are concerned in ascertaining the guilt or innocence of the defendant and not the programs f r reaching action as to whether the bombers should be emphasized as against the fighters, and soon.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. May it please Your Honor. If the de fendant' s witness speaks of "GL", he means by that, of course, the defendant Filch.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
DR. BERGOLD: In other words, the "GL" does not mean the authority itself; that in this case it means the defendant himself.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes, but let's try to confine the inquiry to the counts in the indictment, slave labor, and prisoners of war, and so on, and not these abstract and academic discussions as to the programs for intensifying the war effort.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please your Honor. Hay I please explain that I cannot act in the way your Honor pleases. The Prosecution made a series of morale impeachments referring to crimes the defendant allegedly committed which are not in the indictment. For the question that is, if there is a crime it is of importance what kind of man is before you, whether he was fighting for the aims of the Nazi Party, or, whether he was a man who within the framework of his activity tried to avoid the worst. I point out to you that the IMT in its findings in the case of Speer went out considerably from that point, what the man had done outside the counts of the indictment. For instance, it was counted as a good point for him that he had avoided the destruction of Germany, an. act which he was not accused of, an act which in itself could not have moved at all the Allied countries, therefore, I am of the opinion that I may describe to you the character of that man.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well, Doctor.
DR. BERGOLD: What I wish to show you is the correct picture of this man.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I am afraid that the very thing I was trying to avoid, the long unnecessary discussions, I am only intensifying by my further inquiry, so you may proceed.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, I shall come back to the details which says here in one of the documents concerning the Jaegerstab, may it please your donor, No. NOKW 338 ---- 388, correction. This document discusses the session of the Jaegerstab, session hold on 28 March 1944. Labor requirements are spoken about. Once it said here, a remark made by Milch, I shall read that to you, witness, very shortly. "Milch: Every week 2000 workers come from the East. The Jaegerstab comes before the agriculture, but for a great part they come to the agriculture." Then he says that, "Jaegerstab comes before the agriculture, could we stop that." What was meant -- what does it mean by "Stop that" in this particular passage. Does it mean to catch people, or what does it mean?
A That means whether these measures could not prevent the people from going in to the agriculture so that they could be taken to the industry.
Q The same document. They further speak of the whole matter, namely, the workers were hard to get, and Milch said at one point, "You know our situation." He says to Smelter "That you do everything you can we're sure. However, we have to make a robbing action now. We cannot stick to laws because there will be a lot of discrepancies. However, we shall take this on our back and take the responsibility for it. Witness, could that mean that the people go outside and rob people, or, what did they mean by a "robbing " answer?
A That was to mean that these people should be taken to the industry, and that we were to cheat, so to say, agriculture of those people.
Q In other words, that had nothing to do with robbing people?
A No, that was simply a transfer of the people from one sector to another, respectively that they are not sent to the sector for which they were to be provided, but were sent to the Air Armament Industry, by by-passing the legal regulations.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Mr. Denny, do you have the exhibit number of the document book and page?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, do you have the exhibit number or document book page?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir.
DR. BERGOLD: It was NOKW 388.
MR. DENNEY: In document book, English, Number 4.
DR. BERGOLD: Everything is Exhibit Number 75.
MR. DENNEY: The meeting of 26 March 1944.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, all the documents which I am introducing now are Exhibit 75, even though they might have different document numbers.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, in the Jaegerstab conference of 25 April 1944 -and this is Document NOKW 334, also Exhibit Number 75 -- it says that Frenchmen in Alsace should be put in barracks. Milch puts it in a nice way, that is, that French persons are not to be employed in Alsace. Can you tell me anything about that?
A This is probably the case of the constructing of the tunnel in Alsace which was assigned to the firm B.M.N., the Bayerische Motor Works, so that they would be able to work without being disturbed by air raids. Frenchmen were to be used in order to build this place, and,as far as I can remember this case, Hitler had. ordered later that no Frenchmen were to be used in Alsace. Well, it meant a lot to us to be able to employ those people who were there, so that we would not have to bring German workers there from Germany, and, to comply with Hitler's wishes, Field Marshal Milch had proposed that these people be put in barracks there; perhaps Hitler would not mind that.
Q Was that to be a complete putting in barracks?
A No, this was just a matter of form so that Hitler could not object to it anymore.
Q Witness, in the same conference -- Document NOKW 334, Exhibit Number 73 -- they spoke of the transfer of French prisoners of war from Maehrisch Trucbau to Braunschweig. That is where Milch stated the following; "I think it excellent that these prisoners of was be sent there when Braunschweig is always attacked.
" What, in your opinion, does this sentence mean?
1642a
A I think that Braunschweig, as an industrial city, was exposed to air raids, just like any other city. I cannot find anything particular about this sentence.
Q Could one say that Milch wanted to send the prisoners of war to Braunschweig in order to move the Allies not to bomb Braunschweig?
A I do not think so. After all, these prisoners of war were in all cities, and all cities were attacked at that time, all the cities which had industries.
Q What, then, do you think that he meant by that sentence that he thought it an excellent idea to put these prisoners of war there when Braunschweig was being attacked all the time?
A The prisoners during air raids always stood the test in firefighting and clearing up work, and what he probably meant by that was that it would be good to have these people in these cities under air attack in order to help during future air raids.
Q Apart from that, do you know where the barracks were in Braunschweig? Were these barracks near the factories; were they inside the city, or where were they?
A They were outside the city.
Q Can you go into detail on that? Is it near Braunschweig?
A There wore air fields in Braunschweig, which were in the northern part of the city, and there were also barracks there. I am of the opinion that it was rather far out of the city.
Q Witness, during the eighth trip Hubertus-Enterprise from the 1st to the 3rd of June 1944--Document NOKW 350, again Exhibit 75-Milch says here the following: "No Frenchman will work any longer when the invasion starts. I am of the opinion that these Frenchmen should be brought here by force but then as prisoners. " Witness, can you. explain to me this passage?
A We had arranged with the French government that certain age groups were to be recruited for work in Germany. During the time they were free workers and not prisoners.
Q Fitness, you probably did not quite understand the passage. We are talking here of Frenchmen who were in France during the invasion.
A Yes, yes.
Q Well, Milch wanted to bring them to Germany as prisoners. Can you explain to mo why he proposed that? What was his reason for that?
A I cannot think of that at the moment. I don't know why.
Q Do you know that millions of French prisoners of war had been released?
A Yes.
Q Do you know under what conditions?
A On the basis of being recalled at any moment. I can think only that the question was with people who had been prisoners of war and had been released until further notice and were now working in France, and, as they were afraid of an invasion, these people were to be made prisoners again later on.
Q You are positively sure about that, that these French prisoners of war had been released until being recalled?
A Yes, I am sure of that because we had an agreement with the Vichy government.
Q In the Jaegerstab conference of 20 March 1944 Document NOKW 346, also Exhibit Number 75, Your Honors, Sauer says here the following to Milch:
"As far as Hungary is concerned, I would be very grateful if the Field Marshal would call Herr Sauckel and tell him that the whole pool to be mobilized from Hungary has to be put at the disposal of the Jaegerstab before it is put at the disposal of any other branch. Great labor forces have to be built up. The people must be treated like conviets."
Can you tell me what Milch did on that?
AAll I know is that he told me that he was not going to carry out that wish of Sauer. It was Sauer's wish to ask Sauckel that they be put at the Jaegerstab's disposal. I also know that Held Marshal Milch did l644 not get along with Sauckel.
Q. Witness, did you participate in the trip to Hungary?
A. No.
Q. Do you know the purpose of that trip?
A. Yes. Certain factories were to be erected in the hills around Budapest and in the caves near Budapest, which were at the same level as the Danube. There was for quite a period of time a common program between Germany and Hungary for higher production of fighters. This program was to be intensified, and to protect these factories from air raids.
Q. Is it not correct that that trip also was used to intensify the transportation of Jewish people to Germany?
A. No, I don't know anything about that.
Q Witness, I now come back to the case of the S.S. doctors. Tell me now what was the maximum altitude that the air force was interested in in 1941?
A The altitude to be reached, they spoke a lot about it in the development sessions of G.L.; we realized that in this war the height or altitude of approximately 14,000 meters would be the maximum height obtained by a plane, That was a figure which could be reckoned on if the developments of the high altitude engines and the pressurized chambers could be developed as we expected. From other offices proposals had been made to attain altitudes like 18,000 and 20,000 meters and to test them. Field Marshall Milch and myself declined that at the time because this altitude seemed Utopian ideas to us, and we decided to be satisfied and to restrict ourselves to the altitude of 14,000 meters.
Q What was the practical altitude obtained at that time?
A They had altitudes up to 10,000 and 11,000 kilometers, ten to eleven thousand kilometers.
Q How was the crew to be protected at these altitudes?
A There were two developments in this point, running parallel with each other, namely, one of them to give the pilot a pressurized suit. In other words, a suit.
DR. BERGOLD: Just a moment, witness, the President wants to say something.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the witness misstated something. He spoke about 14,000 kilometers, which is very high. Did he not mean 14,000 meters?
THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed, 14 kilometers or 14,000 meters.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Will you continue please, witness?
A That high altitude suit, in other words, could give the pilot the possibility to move normally in these high altitudes under altered pressure conditions. The other development was the pressurized chamber or cabin. In other words, it was a chamber which could imitate altitudes which were necessary to keeping the pilots alive.
Concerning the first problem we ceased the experiments there, namely the high altitude suit.
l646a because the movement possibilities of the pilot had been hindered to such on extent that he could not make all the movements necessary for the control of the plane.