DR. BERGOLD: No. I believe that the discussion I had with him was only a preparatory discussion, according to Major Teich who spoke to no in English; I misunderstood what ho said. Consequently, I must have the chance to consult Speer in detail. On Friday there were many questions that I really wanted to put to him, but did not have the opportunity to do so.
BY THE PRESIDENT: If evidence is to be produced at all, it will have to be done by interrogatories which will be transcribed and made a part of the document in this case.
The fact that one of the members of the Court was present when the previous interrogatory was being put to him does not mean that his testimony was taken by the Court. The allied Control Council requested that a representative of this Court be present at the time the interrogatories were put to him, and Judge Musmanno volunteered to represent the Tribunal in that respect, but that did not constitute the taking of testimony before the Court be obviously.
DR. BERGOLD: I quite understand that; in other words, I must submit an affidavit of this interrogation.
BY THE PRESIDENT: Well, whatever you wish to submit must be in some other way than by calling the witness personally as a witness.
DR. BERGOLD: In that case, I must ask the Tribunal to give me a day at my disposal during which I can really interrogate Speer in the presence of one of the Judges, and I must ask the Court that court reporters be present, because my secretary is not capable of taking down an interrogation correctly; I have tried that and it was not successful. There were so many errors in her report that I could do nothing with it.
I should then suggest, Your Honors, that if Major Teich is agreeable to this proposal, and the court is also, that that tomorrow, the witness, Spoor, in the presence of court reporters, should be interrogated; and that the record of this interrogation I shall then submit before the Tribunal. Is that agreeable to the Tribunal?
626 a Vouty No. 2
THE PRESIDENT: Do you wish to be heard, Mr. Denney?
MR. DENNEY: Just this, Your Honor, that I understand that the Court has ruled that when Dr. Bergold interrogates any of the present prisoners who were defendants in the ease before the International Military Tribunal a member of the Court will be present and assume at least from the three interrogations that have already been held, that the prosecution will be allowed to be represented. At thou time that Speer was interrogated I didn't know about it until very shortly before it happened and not knowing what the subject of the interrogation was going to be I was unable to prepare any cross interrogatories. And, in view of what Dr. Bergold tells me about his German transcript not being a very accurate, I don't know just what sort of record we will have from that. In the case of the two which were held on Saturday of the witnesses Neurath and Raeder, I believe that I was able to cover everything there that was necessary. However, there again we didn't have a court reporter to take it down although we did have the interpreter from the regular staff of Court interpreters. I would suggest that at any future interrogations that we have with these people that both German and English court reporters be assigned as well as interpreters so that all that will be necessary when we come to present the results of the interrogation to the Court, just bring the transcript up and read it into the record providing that is agreeable with Your Honors and Dr. Bergold.
THE PRESIDENT: The Allied Control Council merely requires that a representative of the Tribunal be present. It doesn't say that all of the judges must be present so, perhaps, that representative we could have. I think this ought to be handled just as you would be handling a deposition, questions and answers taken down verbatim and read to the Court in lieu of the testimony of the witness.
Did you have much opportunity to cross examine, Mr. Denney?
MR. DENNEY: With the witness Speer, no, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Apparently the direct examination of Dr. Bergold is not as complete as he questions here
DR. BERGOLD: Because as I said, I thought it was merely a preparatory investigation or interrogation.
327 a
THE PRESIDENT: Well, perhaps with the new idea in mind it would be better to start again.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And this time with competent reporters and translators and adequate cross examination producing a depostion or interrogation for the prosecution and the defense. Could that be done at all?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, we will have to suspend if we did it tomorrow. Of course, Dr. Bergold knows best. If he wants to do it tomorrow I have no objection. I would appreciate it if I could get his questions at least some time in advance because its going to be easier.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it to be determined by submitting specific interrogations and cross examination or is it going to take the nature of an examination as if the witness were on the stand?
MR. DENNEY: We can do it which ever way Your Honor wishes.
THE PRESIDENT: The latter plan is the most expeditious.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, it certainly is.
DR. BERGOLD: I would like to suggest that it is done in the form as if it were the hearing of a witness because if I have to write out all of the questions I would use more time. I again request more time. Therefore, I would like to suggest that we hear him tomorrow as if he were a witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The other members of the Tribunal agree that the best way to get this testimony is to examine this witness in the same manner as if he were on the witness stand by direct examination and cross examination then if you have forgotten some interrogation why -- I mean, if you have forgotten to put it down on paper you can still cover it. Judge Mussmano volunteered to represent the Tribunal at any time tomorrow. When will you do it?
DR. BERGOLD: As soon as possible. Anytime is convenient to me after nine o'clock.
THE PRESIDENT: How about you, Mr. Denney?
MR. DENNEY: I am sorry. I didn't hear what you said.
THE PRESIDENT: At what hour. What hour would be convenient for you to attend the questioning?
MR. DENNEY: Dr. Bergold agrees that nine thirty will be all right if that's convenient with the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well then the Court will not convene tomorrow but its business will go on as usual in taking this testimony. I presume it will take less time to do it this way than if the witness were here in Court. Now, what about the other witnesses who have been interrogated.
DR. BERGOLD: Raedor and Neurath perhaps they can be heard or interrogated later. After Speer I should like to continue with my other witnesses and Neurath can be interrogated later should it even be necessary. I can perhaps renounce them as witnesses. I do not know yet for sure.
THE PRESIDENT: We will leave that question to be determined later.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I am suggesting in the interests of saving time that you night indicate to Mr. Denney the general subjects you intend to cover. Then he will be prepared with any documents which he might want to have in cross examination.
DR. BERGOLD: I can inform him, yes. I wish to interrogate Speer about the Central Planning, about the Fighter Staff, and about the general position that Milch occupied within the German war machine.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That doesn't leave much out.
DR. BERGOLD: That it is, to be sure, and I think it will take quite a while, too.
THE PRESIDENT: Let us have it understood, Dr. Bergold, that no one will be present at this taking of testimony except those who are necessary; yourself, Mr. Denny -
DR. BERGOLD: I shall be there alone on the condition that German reporters are present so that I do not need to bring my own secretary.
THE PRESIDENT: A German reporter and an American reporter and an interpreter, yourself, Mr. Denny, and Judge Musmanno.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well, May I ask in which room this will take place tomorrow?
THE MARSHAL: I will let you know.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: He will let us know the room number.
DR. BERGOLD: I may then continue with my presentation?
THE PRESIDENT: One more question. Do you expect that examination to take longer than the morning? That is, will you finish it by noon?
DR. BERGOLD: No, I believe I shall also need the afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. BERGOLD: Of course I do not know how many questions are going to be asked in the cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it will take some time to transcribe it also and to get it ready to present to the Tribunal. All right.
DR. BERGOLD: May I continue?
THE PRESIDENT: Please.
DR. BERGOLD: I stopped with Exhibit 58, Document 1510 PS.
"II, the tasks of the Principal Committees." I continue now in the reading from II, 12b. I read from No. 13, Section a, No. IV. That proves that the matter of assigning workers went through the main department or the principal committees. I read then the part before the concluding paragraph V. It is, I believe, the English page 38, the paragraph just before the heading "Final Remarks".
"The District Labor Offices and the offices subordinated to them have the following tasks:
"They accomplish the entire employment of labor in the armament economy. In these cases it is the duty of the District Labor Offices to fill manpower requisitions according to demands of the bottlenecks as well as the recruiting of aliens and manage their employment as well as the employment of prisoners of war.
"They guide the rising generation of their trade and work in the field of relief, such as separation compensations for people drafted into service, special relief, etc.
"In the case of objections from plants against measures of Labor Offices they have to call in the competent supervisory office. In a case in which uniformity of opinion cannot be achieved, the Armament Commissions decide finally." This, too, was, you see, a function of Speer's ministry.
I turn now to Document Book 2b, Exhibit No. 2b, Exhibit No. 61, Document No. NOKW 247, page 99. I am afraid that is Volume 3-C, page 99. It is a long interrogation of the late defendant Goering. Goering here answers a question who would provide information. It begins "No, Funk could give more precise information on the situation."
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honors, the document begins on page 44, which is the very first document in Book 2-B. In Dr. Bergold's index the document was falsely numbered and he is to read in the middle of this rather long interrogation.
DR. BERGOLD: I will ask the Tribunal -- I have the entire document but the cart I wish to read is not in the English translation.
THE PRESIDENT: You nay read it now.
DR. BERGOLD: With your permission I shall read it now and submit it to you later.
Goering is here discussing the fact that Speer was at his office and wanted to be Commissioner for Armament Tasks. I read:
"A short time thereafter Speer came to me again and suggested a Central Planning Committee, because he said he would have to coordinate matters with Economy Group 3, and so on, and since I myself wanted him to do this, because that was the correct thing to do, and because I had too much already to do with the air force, I suggested that he worked very well with Milch and for that reason he should call upon Milch for this, and not so much as my representative as Reich Air Minister, but because of his competence, and he should take care of this field of transportation and the other matters."
Then I read on the next page something again which I presume I shall have to bring later to the Tribunal -- a short section.
Goering says:
"In the Four Year Plan I limited myself to making my general plenipotentiary powers available. I never received any reports on the central planning, because that was not necessary at all. That was Speer's affair."
And then one final section which I shall also submit to the Tribunal later. That is question No. 99.
"Q. That is not my question. My question was solely who was commissioned in the Reich Luft Ministry to coordinate and prepare the manpower in the various subterranean sectors.
"A. An underground factory was built, the so-called Talar(?) Work. That is the only one that I visited. No prisoners worked there. Prisoners of war, that is, concentration camp prisoners. Prisoners of war worked there and German workers. The other factories were not for the airforce, but for the ball-bearing works, and so forth.
"Then a program was initiated under the direction, to be sure, of Himmler and subordinate to him an engineer named Kammler, an SS General of the Waffen SS and Gruppenfuehrer. He was to expand the five or six plants that were planned for, and for these, among others also, concentration camp prisoners were to be used.
"The working forces in general were made up of all sorts of elements, free workers, and prisoners. These plants which were intended, however, did not get past the planning stage, for then tunnels in Stuttgart and near Partenkirchen were taken. This matter was, in other words, Hammier's affair which he had received directly from the Fuehrer via Himmler. For the others Speer was commissioned, in which cases Milch stated the space that we needed. But I recall having sent reports on these instructions. So far as the cement works were concerned, the engineer in charge of the building wa.s Saur. That, in other words, was taken care of in Speer's Ministry. It was in part the Deputy Dorsch, and to the extent that it was a matter of providing the space necessary, it was Saur. That is to say, it was taken care of in Speer's Ministry. That is, all armament matters were coordinated, for to be sure the Reich Air Ministry had a part in it to the extent that we had to announce what we needed."
Your Honors, I wish to show through this that the large plants were as a matter of fact, only planned but never built and that Milch had nothing to do with this, aside from saying that if the capacity was built, that he could use it.
I come now to Exhibit No. 60. It is document No. 1666 PS, Page 48 of Document Book 2-b, of 27 March 1942, Hitler's order defining Sauckel's authority. This decree is to be found on the first page of this exhibit.
"Decree by the Fuehrer concerning a Plenipotentiary General for the utilization of labor of 21 March 1942.
"In order to secure the manpower requisite for the war industries as a whole, and particularly for armaments, it is necessary that the utilization of all available manpower, including that of workers recruited abroad and of prisoners of war, should be subject to uniform control, directed in a manner appropriate to the requirements of war industry, and further that all still incompletely utilized manpower in the Great German Reich, including the Protectorate, and in the General Government and in the Occupied territories, should be mobilized.
"Reichstatthalter and Gauleiter Fritz Sauckel will carry out this task within the framework of the Four Year Plan as Plenipotentiary General for the utilization of labor. In that capacity he will be directly responsible to the Commissioner for the Four Years Plan.
"Section III (wages) and Section V (utilization of labor) of the Feich Labor Ministry, together with their subordinate authorities, will be placed at the disposal of the Plenipotentiary General for the accomplishment of his task.
"Fuehrer-Headquarters, 21 March 1942, the Fuehrer, Adolph Hitler:
I turn now to document -- it received no exhibit number by the Prosecution. It is, however, in the document book as PS 1292, Page 60 of the second Document book of January 4, 1944; Page 60 of the document book.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Number 50 in the Prosecution document book. Exhibit 50.
DR. BERGOLD:Then I made an error. This exhibit consists of two parts, and I made a mistake. I beg the Tribunal's pardon.
I read from Page 102 of the German Document Book everything that stands under the date b January 19bb at the beginning of this document, 1292. It begins, "concerning, utilization of labor, 1944."
THE INTERPRETER: Again, Your Honors, only that second part is in our document, that part that, as Dr. Bergold said, the Prosecution submitted.
DR. BERGOLD: Again then I shall submit this part that I am reading to the Court later. I quote:
" Re: Utilization of labor, 1944.
" 1. There was a conference today with the Fuehrer at which the Plenipotentiary General for the Utilization of Labor Gauleiter Sauckel, the Reich Minister for Armaments and War Production Speer, the Chief of the OKW General Field Marshal Keitel, General Field Marshal Milch, State Secretary Backe who was entrusted with carrying on the business of the Reich Ministry for Food and Agriculature, the Reich Minister for the Interior, SS Himmler, and I were present."
"I" in this case is Dr. Lammers. " The Reich Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Reich Economy Minister asked before the conference that they be allowed to participate, but the Fuehrer did not permit it. As an introductory remark the Fuehrer stated: I want to know for sure: 1, how much manpower will be needed for German war production, a, to maintain current capacity, b, to increase current capacity, 2, how much manpower can be found in the occupied territories, or, by application of correct measures, can be obtained in the German Reich for increased production "On the other hand, therefore, we have to cover losses in manpower through death, sickness, continual fluctuation in manpower, and so on, and further also we have to find additional and new manpower."
In the German text, page 3--page 104, General Field Marshal Milch stated that particularly in agriculture many women who actually were capable of working did not work because they received an allotment for their husbands who were in the army, and if they worked their pay would be deducted from this allotment as dependents so that they thought, in their primitive fashion, that they were working for nothing.
"On the other hand, here we must stop deducting wages from the dependent allotments, and on the other hand, it must also be determined that the women who refused to work will then not receive any dependents allowance, or at any rate, will receive a smaller one. The Fuehrer adopted no position on this question, saying that he did not want to enter into details."
This, Your Honors, is the meeting of the Central Planning Board about the four million fifty thousand workers, in which, as I have herewith established, the Fuehrer stated for the first time that four million additional workers were needed. I have already read the minutes of that other meeting.
I come now to Exhibit 56, Document 3819 PS. It is Lammers' report on the Hitler conference of 11 July 1944, I read from the first list of those attending, because the Prosecution was of the opinion that Milch had been present.
The Prosecution came to this conclusion on the basis of the plans of participation in this meeting, which did not actually take place. I read Page 74 "list of proposed participants in the conference on 11 July 1944.
1) Deputy for four Year Plan, Staatssekretaer Koerner.
2) Reichsminsiter des Innere Staatssekretaer Dr. Stuckert.
Chef der Sicherheitspolizei Kaltenbrunner.
3) Reichswirtschaftsminsiter: Reichsminsiter Funk.
Ministerialdirektor Dr. Michel.
4) Reichsminister der Finanzen: Reichsminister Graf Schwerin von Krosick.
5) Reichsminister fuer Ruestung und Kriegsproduction: Reichsminsiter Speer.
6) Vertreter der Wehrmacht: Vertreter des Chefs des OKW:
General Warliment.
Begleiter Oberst Meistner.
Vertreter des Generalquatermeisters Heer:
Ministerialdirektor Sarnow.
Vertreter des Bevollmachtigten Generals Italien:
Staatssekretaer Landfried Vertreter des Chefs Stabes:
Oberst Hahn Fuer den Militaerbefehlhaber Frankreich:
Chef des Stabes: Oberst von Listow und Ministerialdirektor Michel.
Fuer den Militaerbefehlshaber Belgien/Nordfrankreich:
Chef des Stabes: Generalmajor Heider und Militaerverwaltungchef Reder
7) Reichsminister des Auswaertigen: Staatssekretaer von Steengracht Botschafter Rahn Botschafter Abetz
8) Reichsminsiter fuer Ernaehrung und Landwirtschaft: Reichsminister Backe
9) Partei-Kanzlei:
637-A Staatssekretaer Dr. Klopfer.
Ministerialrat Froehling.
10) Deutsche Arbeitsfront: Reichsleiter Dr. Ley.
Begleiter: Pg. Bandol.
11) GBA: Gauleiter Sauckel.
12) Oberster Kommissar Alpenvorland:
Gauwirtschaftsberater Bilger Leiter des Arbeitsbereichs Arbeitseinsatz Dr. Parl (oder Stellvertreter) 13) Oberster Kommissar Adriatisches Kuestenland:
Oberregierungsrat Dr. Kohlhasse.
That is the entire list of participants. It is to be observed from this that, contrary to the allegations of the prosecution, Milch was not present.
Now, from English Document Book 20. This is Exhibit No. 54, Document No. NOKW-017, apparently the last document in the book. Dated 25 March 1944, a speech at the conference with Air Force Engineers and Chief Quartermasters and Milch, on page 109. That is the famous long speech in which Milch allegedly made many wild remarks, which I already announced to you by my own document this morning, of 20 March, and which is my own documentary exhibit number 14. I read from this speech on page 188 at the foot of the German Document Book. It will be hard to find. It is in the German Document Book, the fifth page - or rather the sixth page. It begins roughly "Unfortunately there are exceptions."
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know the page in the German document?
DR. BERGOLD: No, I cannot inform the Tribunal of that because, Your Honor, that is not indicated in my document book. Your Honor, I have found the page. It is on page 6 of the German book, page 6 of the original. It is on page 115, that is the English document book, the sixth line above the last paragraph: "Unfortunately there are exceptions for which the Wehrmacht sector is responsible."
THE INTERPRETER: The Doctor is marking the passages which read "Because it would be difficult to find each one of the."
DR. BERGOLD: Page six of the German document, of the original, that is the page.
THE INTERPRETER: I believe that Doctor Bergold is misinformed. I think it is page seven.
DR. BERGOLD: It begins at about the end of the page.
"Unfortunately there are exceptions for which the Wehrmacht sector is responsible. The Wehrmacht does not work as smoothly and beautifully as civilian offices. It is an error to believe that civilian offices are more bureaucratic than military offices. On the basis of my continuous and extensive experience I can assure you that exactly the opposite is true.
"In brief, the people arrive there and are put to work there. If any doubts exist as to whether a request is justified or not - for the people are not requested by numbers, but as electricians, blacksmiths, fitters, turners, as unskilled laborers, as foreigners - then this is settled. If it is found that the request for people is not justified, then the matter is referred to a commission, and this commission examines the facts within 24 hours. If it becomes apparent that dirty dealings are going on, my special court martial is called into play and it hands down a quick decision."
Your Honor recalls I said I would call a witness who will testify that the defendant had no power of the sort that is said here. This is just a part of his wild expressions which he made in order to spur on the other workers. He did not have the power to summon a court martial.
Then on page 9 of the German original, I quote: "Gentlemen,--" I come now to the detailed individual points. This is a short section, perhaps I can read it into the record anyway, so we can continue.
639-A "Gentlemen, I come now to individual questions.
Here is the most important question with which this present meeting is also concerned, that is to make the cooperation directly and indirectly within the Luftwaffe decisive; what we want to give you gentlemen is a very wide and strong program."
On page 10 now of the German original. Page 118 of the English Document Book, the top paragraph beginning with:
"Gentlemen, the most urgent and important question is the following Due to the heavy air raids on our plane factories, supply depots and similar things, have been hit to an increased extent, and in many cases destroyed. We all know that the keeping of reserves for the troops was very difficult because of the farspread fronts and the often inexpressibly stupid understanding of the troops for Germany's interests. The spare parts which had to be ordered from the supply organization of the Quartermaster General -- he received most urgent requests -- were already very many. Their request for spare parts alone amount at the moment to -- Ceyka, help me! (Ceyka: 4.2 billion) -- to 4.2 billion spare parts requests have been given to the German Industry. You know what 4.2 billion means. It is so mad and crazy that one can not quite imagine what it means. You realize that we are dealing with tremendous figures here. I was once a captain and Squadron Commander (Staffelkapitaen) myself, and it was my greatest pride that I head everything. For my squadron of twenty planes I had 500 or 600 mangetos, 1000 sets of rubber tires, etc. I am quite willing to admit that. Only I believe that just such idiots, as I was at that time, still exist today. If we do not stop this, if we do not stop this exaggerated keeping of supplies, and change it immediately, then the war will be lost through the idiocy of these people! Do not expect a captain or a major in the field to have understanding of what it means to have too many supplies.
I will skip a few sentences. It starts with the last three words on Page 118. I am skipping one sentence only.
"He is not in a position - technically alone - to do so, and he relies entirely upon the foreman who is always the bigger dope in this field. Such a foreman hoards spare parts, etc. enough to supply entire squadrons for the next ten years. That is his ambition."
Now I skip seven sentences and continue: "You have to find out everything for yourself, who has too much of what. You must say to your Air Force Commander and your Corps Engineers: Whoever hoards supplies must be punished immediately. By punishment, I also mean shooting, for if these people are told what is at issue here, and they still try to hide parts of their supplies or to cover them up, that is dirty dealing and a crime against Germany."
Your Honors, I shall prove through General Roeter that he never gave any order that they should ever be shot. They were words on his part. He always pardoned those who are condemned to death.
THE PRESIDENT: We have reached the hour of adjournment. Before we adjourn the Tribunal holds, that there will be no failure on the part of the court reporters or the interpreters to have someone assigned to the taking of testimony tomorrow.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, I wondered if I might take one member of my staff in there with me tomorrow.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no objection.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course. The court will recess then until February 5th, the day after tomorrow.
DR. BERGOLD: One question, Your Honor. Is it permitted that the defendant be present?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, with reference to Dr. Bergold's request that a defendant be present, these are in the nature of interrogations and I submit that I see no reason why he should be there. He is ably represented by counsel, and I'd like to call the Court's attention to the fact that this man is a Field Marshal in the Luftwaffe and held a very high position 641 I don't know what his relationship with these people are and I don't see anything that would be served to help the case by having him there, and it certainly won't prejudice him if he is not there.