Q Now, witness, will you tell the Tribunal in a little more detail about your relationship with Prince Coburg, the work you did there, and will you also tell the Tribunal about any previous arrests to which you have been subjected?
A I was administrator of the property of this Austrian-Hungarian Prince Coburg, and as such, I repeatedly had business in Germany. We had considerable blocked accounts in Germany. I was arrested twice Germany by the Gestapo. Once in 1936 for one day only. The second time in March 1937 by the Gestapo. In both cases an attempt was made to involve me in violations of German foreign currency laws and to prove that I had supported the immigrants in Austria by my collaboration with anti-Fascists abroad, in Czechoslovakia and in Switzerland. The second time, I was arrested and put on probation after 12 days, but I could not leave Germany. After four and a half months, there was a trial in Wiesbaden at which I, as a representative of Prince Coburg, was tried for extensible violation of the German foreign Currency laws and for financial support of a large Catholic publishing house in Germany from abroad I was given a fine of ten thousand marks.
Q Who paid that fine, witness?
A Prince Coburg.
Q Was this a responsible position which you had with Prince Coburg?
Q Did you have to handle and administer large sums of money?
A Yes, I had all the free fortune in Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Switzerland under my charge. As trustee, I was in charge of the Vienna private bank of this prince.
Q How large an estate was that?
A The estate of this prince in Austria included about 25 Million schillings, of which I had about two and a half to three million under my administration.
Q Is this Prince Coburg with whom you had this relationship the same one who was an Obergruppenfuehrer in the SA?
A No, he had nothing to do with him.
Q This family Coburg is the one from which rulers of various countries in Europe have come?
A Yes, it is the same family.
Q Now, as I remember your earlier statement, you were sent to Buchenwald in September 1939, is that right?
Q Now, what work did you do while you were in the camp, Doctor Kogon
AAt first, I was used as a ground worker and after about six months as a blacksmith, later a tailor. In the beginning of '43, I came to the pathology section as a secretary-clerk, and from the spring of '43, I was first doctor's clerk, working for Sturmbannfuehrer, who was later Hauptsturmbannfuehrer, Dr. Ding. He later assumed the name of Schuler for the newly created vaccine station in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp.
Q That was in the spring of 1943 that you became chief clerk to Schuler?
A In April 1943.
Q What were your duties as clerk to Schuler-Ding?
A I was in charge of all his correspondence. I had to take all the dictation from Dr. Ding, I had to take care of the files, and I had to pass his orders.
Q Now, were you working in Block 46 or Block 50?
A In Block 50.
Q Now, will you explain to the Tribunal just what work Ding-Schuler was doing in Buchenwald, that is, over which blocks he had jurisdiction and what was being done in each of the blocks?
A Dr. Ding, in 1939, was camp physician in Buchenwald. Then he went to the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS in Berlin and returned about the end of '41 as head of the newly created experimental station. Here returned to Buchenwald. In 1943, or the end of '42, he suggested that typhus vaccine for the fighting troops at the front should be produced in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp, and for this purpose a station within the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS should be founded.
Actually, in the first months of 1943, a section for typhus and virus research was set up in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp with the two blocks, 46 and 50. Block 46 was called the "Clinical Station for Typhus and Virus Research" under the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS-Berlin. Block 50 was called "Section for Typhus Vaccine Production." Dr. Ding was the head of the Block 46 and of Block 50. Both the two blocks had nothing to do with each other as far as personnel was concerned. The prisoners in Block 50 for the most part were enemies of the Block 46 Dietsch. Dr. Ding issued the instructions for Block 46 directly to Arthur Dietsch, CAPO of block 46. Only when there were visits or reports which had to be made was I told to ask for the material from Capo Arthur Dietsch to draw up the reports or to announce visits in Block 46. Dr. Ding-Schuler when he was not in Berlin personally used to write reports to Mrugowsky every three months. Dr. Ding-Schuler from the fall of 1943 on was also special deputy of the so-called block districts of the SS. Especially for Block Area "B" in the Hartz Mountains.
Where there were about fifteen auxiliary camps of Buchenwald, he had to control the hygienic conditions there because about twenty-five thousand inmates of Buchenwald were sent there as workers in subterranean installations, especially the Junkers works.
Q. Now, Mr. Kogon, some interest has been shown in the change of the name of Ding to Schuler. Will you explain to the Tribunal what you know about Ding's having his name changed to Schuler, and if, in fact, they are one and the same person?
A. Dr. Ding is identical with Schuler. From the Spring or Summer of 1944 on he generally used the double name Ding-Schuler, outwardly only the name Schuler. Mrugowsky, however, wished him to use the name Ding with the name Schuler, or to call himself Schuler, too, because there was another SS officer in Berlin who had the name Schuler. The name Ding also is not the real name of this SS physician. He was the illegitimate child of a girl named Braun. A merchant at Bielefeld later adopted him, and that is how he got the name Ding. His father was a physician, Dr. Von Schuler and Ding endeavored from 1938 on to get tho noble name Von Schuler. When the war broke out, changes in names were prohibited by the Ministry of the Interior. Ding, however, did not stop his attempts to change his name, and through Himmler personally in 1944 he managed to have his name changed. He welcomed this fact in 1944 very particularly because he hoped that in this way ho would be able to achieve tho advantage after the end of the war, after the victory -- the victory of the Allies which he no longer doubted that he would be able to disappear.
Q. Now, Mr. Kogon, I believe you stated that Block 50 began the production of typhus vaccines sometime in the early part of 1943, is that correct?
A. In 1943.
Q. Now, were the typhus experiments carried on in the Clinical Block, that is, Block 46?
A. Only in Block 46.
Q. And when did those experiments begin, do you know?
A.I know from Dr. Ding-Schuler, from my comrades who worked in the prisoners' hospital, and later from Arthur Dietsch that the first experiments took place about the turn of the year 1941, '42.
Q. Now, you had stated what your duties were with Dr, Ding. Can you tell us some of the persons with whom Ding had correspondence in connection with the typhus experiments at Buchenwald?
A. The correspondence was carried on primarily with Mrugowsky as the head of Office 16, and later Chief Hygienist of the SS, also partly -officially partly privately with Gruppenfuehrer Genzken, furthermore, with the Military Medical Academy in Berlin, with the Institute for Typhus and Virus Research of the OKH in Krakow, with the Behring works in Marburg, with the I. G. Farben Industry, the Hoechst Laboratory in Hoechst on the Main, and with a number of smaller firms, finally with the SS Hospital in Berlin, Untar den Eichen 125, and with a few doctors personally, for example, Professor Ruge in Rumania, and a few other doctors.
Q. Do you remember if he had any correspondence with the Institute at Leipzig under Poppendick?
A. Yes. There was also correspondence between the firm Mauthausen & Company in Dresden/Raterpoll, the experimental section 5 in Leipzig. This correspondence was in part through Poppendick in Berlin and part through Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Kirchert in Leipzig. This concerned experiments-- two kinds of experiments. In the first place, phosphorous, kautchuk, incendiary bomb experiments in Buchenwald, and in the second place, experiments of a Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Bernhardt who tried to make homosexuals sexually potent through gland treatment. These two experiments went through the Section 5 in Leipzig.
Q. "We will discuss in more detail these two experiments later on, Witness. Now, did Ding confide in you with respect to his work in these typhus experiments?
A. From the time when I had to work with Dr. Ding-Schuler, I learned virtually every important detail concerning the experiments in Block 46.
Q. Did you have an opportunity to read secret reports on these experiments?
A. What reports?
Q. Secret reports on the experiments?
A. There was no correspondence, whether private, from Dr. Ding-Schuler, or official, pen or secret which did not go through my hands, as far as this correspondence originated from Block 50 in Buchenwald.
Q. Now, were you able to obtain any knowledge of medicine? Did you make any study of medicine because of the position you had in Buchenwald?
A. When on the 6th of June, 1946, I was called for the first time to take dictation from Dr. Ding, I was in extremely great difficulties because I had only very little primitive medical knowledge in the -- which I had acquired in the preceding weeks in the Pathological Section. From then on I began to study biology and infectious diseases at night, first in order to learn the technical expressions, and, second, in order to gain an understanding of the material. Personally, I was interested in learning a field of natural science. Dr. Ding gave me the necessary literature to do this from Jena.
Only later die I have an opportunity to talk with a number of important bacteriologists in Block 50. They were primarily foreigners, French, Czechs, Poles, Russians. They generally could not talk to the Sturmbannfuehrer, and they asked me to present the results of their experiments to the Sturmbannfuehrer The so-called scientific work of Dr. Ding-Schuler -- I had to write it which was to be published in German medical publications since Dr. Ding wanted to become a Lecturer. In such cases he gave me directives and hints and instructed me to work out a subject with the bacteriologists, the biologists and the other scientists In Block 50, and possibly in the Camp, to draw up the work and to submit it to him. In this way in the course of two and a half years I was able do learn a minimum-- to acquire a minimum of medical knowledge by virtue of which I was able to understand the things that happened in Block 46.
Q. Now, Mr. Kogon, did yon ever write any reports for Ding on the experiments in Block 46?
Q Now, Mr. Kogon, did you ever write any reports for Ding on the experiments in Block 46?
A Yes; the results of the series of experiments conducted in Block 46, I had to sum them up on the basis of the material which Block 46 turned into me. I had to submit them to Doctor Ding, then he dictated to me the reports, which were generally sent to Doctor Mrugowsky in Berlin.
Q Do you know whether Doctor Ding was under instructions to type up these secret reports himself?
A There were such cases. Doctor Ding told me then, "Kogon, here is another case where I must report personally. It is a very secret matter. I will dictate to you now. You will write the thing on the typewriter, but without a diary number and without your initials, and make a few typewriting mistakes in it so that it will lock authentic, so that Mrugowsky will not think somebody else wrote it." I did that and Doctor Schuler sent these letters personally.
Q Did you ever see Mrugowsky at Buchenwald?
A Yes; as far as I can recall, I saw Mrugowsky probably three times. At least twice in Buchenwald.
Q Will you look at the defendants in the dock to your right and tell me if you see Mrugowsky there?
A The first from the right in the lower row.
MR. MCHANEY: We ask that the record show that the witness has properly identified the defendant Mrugowsky.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will show the witness properly identified the defendant Mrugowsky in the dock.
Q Did you ever take any dictation from Mrugowsky?
AAs far as I can recall, once.
Q Now, I will ask you again -- strike that. Do you know a man by the name of Hoven?
Q What do you know about Hoven? That is, what he was doing in Buchenwald?
A Hoven had a double function in the concentration camp Buchenwald. He was camp physician, and he was the deputy of Doctor Ding-Schuler for the experimental station 46.
Q Will you look at the dock of defendants and tell me if you see Hoven?
A The fifth from the right in the upper row.
MR. McHANEY: We will ask that the record show that the witness properly identified the defendant Hoven.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will show that the witness has correctly identified the defendant Hoven in the dock.
Q Now, Mr. Kogan, before going into the details of some of the things that occurred at Buchenwald, I would like to ask you to tell the Tribunal briefly what types of experiments on the concentration camp inmates took place or were carried out at Buchenwald while you were there?
A The main experiments in the concentration camp Buchenwald concerned typhus, the so-called exantimaticus. There were also experiments with yellow fever; with small pox: dysentry; typhoid fever -typhoid A and B; convalesence serium; blood durability of blood plasma. A series of experiments with Fraenkel - toxius was introduced. The contents of the phosphorus - kantcnuk - incendiary bombs. And, blood was taken from invalids to produce blood for the SS hospital in Berlin. The typhus experiments were extended to the most varied means of combating typhus. The following vaccines were used: A typhus vaccine of the Behring works, produced from egg yolk cultur according to the process of Cox, Gildemeister and Haagen. Also a vaccine from Rabbit lungs, according to the process of Professor Giraud of the Pasteur Institute in Paris. And, in the third place a vaccine of the OKH Institute in Krakow, the so-called Beigel vaccine from the intestines of lice. Then a vaccine from mouse liver. A Danish vaccine from Copenhagen. And, various chemical therapeutical agents, for example. Methylene blue, Persical, Ruthenol, Nifro-Acredine.
Q Before we go into the details of the typhus experiments, I would like to ask you if you know anything about the manner in which subjects were selected for the experiments which you have mentioned and which took place in Buchenwald?
A The selection of experimental subjects was not the same at different times. In the very first period the inmates of the camp were called upon to volunteer. They were told that it was a harmless affair; that the people would get additional food. After one or two experiments it became impossible to get any volunteers whatever. From then on, Doctor Ding asked the camp physician or the SS camp Director to select the suitable persons for the experiments. He had no special directives for this. The camp administration chose people arbitrarily from among the prisoners, whether they were criminals, or political prisoners, or homosexuals. Intrigue amongst the prisoners themselves also played a role in the selection, and occasionally people came who had -- for whom there was no special reason, but they came into the experiments. From the fall of 1943, approximately, the camp leaders did not want to keep the responsibility for the selection of experimental subjects. Doctor Ding, himself, no longer wish to have verbal instructions from Mrugowsky to carry out the experiments, but he demanded written orders. For this purpose he approached Mrugowsky with the request that the Reichsfuehrer SS should appoint his own people for the experiments. SS Gruppenfuehrer Nebe of the Reich Criminal Police Office in Berlin then, according to a directive from Himmler, which I saw, ordered that only those people were to be used who had at least a ten years sentence to work out. Then, the officials of the Reich Criminal police Office in Berlin twice selected 110 and 99 people in Buchenwald, who were made available for the experiments. They were exclusively criminals who had been punished before. In the last period, people were selected from various concentration camps and prisons in Germany. Transports came to Buchenwald with these people. In addition to this, political prisoners from the camp itself were almost always included in these series of experiments which, because they were inconvenient to the SS in some way or because they were victims of camp intrigues.
Q Were all of these experimental subjects condemned to death, who were experimented on in Block 46?
A I do not know of a single case in which some one came to the experimental station in Block 46 because he had been condemned to death. Once in the case of four Russian prisoners of war, it was claimed that they were to be shot, but there was no judgment, no sentence. They belonged to the category of Russian prisoners of war, of whom about 9500 who were partly shot, partly hanged or strangled in Buchenwald.
Q Were any special consideration or favors granted to the experimental subjects who survived these experiments?
A The experimental subjects in the first two or three weeks before the experiments were carried out received better food in order to get them into the condition of a normal German soldier. In addition to that, none of those prisoners, as for as they survived, had received no advantages, and they were never promised any such thing.
Q Was an effort make to pick experimental subjects who were in good physical health, that is, comparable to a Wehrmacht soldier?
A The conditions did exist as far as was probably with the other conditions of selection it was fulfilled.
Q Did I understand you to say that Mrugowsky issued orders to Schuler with respect to the selection of inmates and the experiments themselves?
A Doctor Ding told me in the first period, when I was working for him, that the instructions for the execution of the experiments had come from Mrugowsky in Berlin. He said nothing about the special method of how the people were to be selected.
Q Witness, are you familiar with a diary kept by Dr. Ding on the experiments in Black 46 at Buchenwald?
Q I will ask you if you have ever seen the document which I will now have handed to you, Document NO-265, which has been admitted as Prosecution Exhibit 237.
(Document handed to witness).
A It is the original diary which was kept in Block 46.
Q Did you ever have control of that book yourself?
A In a limited way. The diary was kept in Block 46 by the head clerk there under the instructions of Dr. Ding and under the control of Cape Arthur Dietsch. Dr. Ding generally every six months, sometimes every three months, made reports to Standartenfurhrer later Oberfuehrer Mrugowsky. For the latter purpose, the diary was taken from Block 46 to Block 50; and I used it as control document in setting up the dates which were to be included in the reports and which concerned not only Block 46 but also Block 50.
A few days before the end of the concentration camp Buchenwald, all SS documents which were in the camp were burned by the SS men. Dr. Ding gave me instructions to take the files of Block 50 to Block 46. These did not include this diary. This diary was kept in Block 46. I went to Block 46 with him; and he and Cape Arthur Dietsch in my presence began to look through the files of the patients in Block 46. Every record which seemed dangerous to him he put into a sack. Cape Arthur Dietsch later took them to the crematorium and burned them there. When the two men were in the next room for a moment, I took a bundle of these records, quite arbitrarily, just as they were lying there, and the diary which I saw lying there. I took them out and threw them into a box.
Two days later I told Dr. Ding that I had not burned the diary. He was quite astonished at this. He asked me whether I believed that this diary was not a terrible indictment against him. I told him, "If It can be proved before a court that you, Sturmbannfuehrer, went so far as to save this diary, that is conclusive evidence that you were really honest in your intentions."
Then he gave me permission to get the diary from Block 46, to get it out of there and to keep it. I took the diary with me out of the camp; and until the fall of 1945 I kept it in my possession.
Then I turned it over to the Military Intelligence Service Center and the Document Center in Oberursel. From then on it was no longer in my hands.
Q When did you turn this document over to the Office of Chief Counsel here in Nurnberg?
A I cannot say exactly. I believe it was in the fall of 1945. At least at that time it was used to prepare photostatic copies. It may be that it was given back to me once more and that I gave it to one of the many American officers again later. I must say in that connection that during this one and three-quarters years I was extremely busy and was concerned with a great number of documents so that I no longer know exactly when I turned over the document to the Office of Chief of Counsel. In any case it was in Oberursel.
Q Did you change or alter this document in any way while it was in your possession?
A Why should I have done that?
Q Then your answer to the question is "No" is that right?
A No. Absolutely no.
Q Is this document still in the same condition it was when you turned it over to the Office of Chief of Counsel?
A When I just looked at it new, it looked exactly the same, the same color, the same form, the signature of Ding, later Schuler, the same paper, the same typewriter type.
(Document handed to witness.)
Yes, it is absolutely the same copy.
Q And those signatures appearing then in there are the signatures of Ding and Schuler?
A It is the original hindwriting of Dr. Ding and later Schuler.
Q Witness, getting back for a moment to the selection of the experimental subjects, can you tell the Tribunal whether or not the defendant Hoven played any part in the selection of inmates for the typhus experiments in Block 46?
A There were cases in which Dr. Ding asked the camp physician to see to it that the necessary number of experimental subjects should be selected from the prisoners. As for as I am informed, the camp physician passed on this request to the camp administration which in the first years carried out the selection until the Reich Criminal Police Office selected the people or sent the people.
THE PRESIDENT: As it was announced this morning, the Tribunal will now recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning; and the gentlemen whom I have requested to meet the members of the Tribunal will report in five minutes at the consultation room.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be recessed until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 7 January 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 7 January 1947, 0930, Justice Beals, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session.
God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if the defendants are all present in the court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honors, the defendants are all present in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note on the minutes the defendants are all present in the court.
DR. EUGEN KOGON Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)
THE PRESIDENT: The witness on the stand is reminded that he is still under oath.
MR. MC HANEY: May it please the Tribunal, the prosecution will continue with the examination of the witness Kogon.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q. Mr. Kogon, at the conclusion of yesterday's session you had explained to us the manner in which experimental subjects were selected for the medical experiments in the Buchenwald camp. Will you tell the Tribunal whether any non-German nationals were experimented on.
A. Amongst the experimental subjects who had been selected for Block 46, there were not only Germans but also Poles, Russians and Frenchmen, particularly during the last years.
Q. Were there any prisoners of war experimented on in Block 46 to your knowledge?
Q. Now, will you please explain to the Tribunal in your own words exactly how these typhus experiments were carried out.
A. After 40 to 60 people, sometimes up to 120, had been detailed for a series of experiments, one-third of them were separated, two-thirds of them were either vaccinated with a protective treatment or otherwise treated with it if it was a subject. Those people who were protected against typhus remained in Block 46 for several weeks until the Rickettsia, the cause of the classic typhus, was used to infect them. Together with them, the first selection, that is to say, the first third, was also infected. They served as so-called control persons with the help of whom it was possible to ascertain whether the infection was taking, what course the disease would take in their cases, so that the course could be compared with that which had appeared with those who had been vaccinated who had also been infected. Infection was carried in different ways. Either typhus was transferred through fresh blood, which was injected intravenously or it was injected intramuscularly. At the beginning even by lacerating the skin by means of a cut into the arm. In the initial stages two cubic centimeters of fresh blood infected with typhus were used for infection unless one was concerned with an infection with an infectious solution. Two cubic centimeters of fresh blood which contained typhus was then, therefore, usually injected into the veins. Later on that dosage was reduced to l/20th of 1 cubic centimeter because the large quantity of 2 cubic centimeters would prevent any security, penetrate any security achieved by protective vaccination. Even l/20th of a cubic centimeter of typhus containing fresh blood was usually enough if it was injected into the the veins to produce typhus to a very high degree. In the course of years the typhus cultures which were used at Buchenwald had been cultivated from man to man and they had increased their strength, their virility to a very considerable degree, so that the smaller quantity was perfect enough. A suggestion which I had made in 1944 to Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ding, namely, that in order to increase the scientific control he should reduce the quantity of these injections to the extreme minimum so that the so-called swelling value should be ascertained -- in other words, so that the artificial infection should be most like the artificial infection through life.
That suggestion was turned down by him since he believed that in that case no convincing proof would exist for the effectiveness of the protective means which were being used. A third category of the experimental persons was used to maintain the typhus cultures, those were the so-called passage persons, amounting to three to five persons per month. They were only infected for the purpose of making sure that typhus containing fresh blood would always be available at all times. Very nearly all of those persons died and I do not think that I am exaggerating if I say that 95% of these cases were fatal.
Q. Witness, do you mean to say that they deliberately infected three to five persons a month with typhus just to have the viruses alive and available in blood?
A. Just for that particular purpose.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal approximately how many of those persons died who were injected just to keep the viruses alive?
A. Of the so-called passage persons, there was, as I have already said, three to five per month who were used, that is to say, during the period when I was working for Pr. Ding-Schuler so many every month until the end of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp. That is to say, beginning with April 1943 until March 1945. Before that, as far as the previous period is concerned, I only know that passage persons had also been used but I do not know the figures.
Q. Now, witness, were experimented persons also infected with lice?
A As far as is known to me, there was one single instance when an experiment took place in Buchenwald where an original infection with typhus was carried out with lice. The contagious lice had been brought from the Institute of the OKH of Krakow, by a courier. They were taken to Block 46. They were kept in small cages which were applied to the thigh of the experimental persons and a number of persons, the number of whom I do not know, was infected. Some of our comrades were allowing a few lice to escape in a room of Block 46 but they did keep these lice under control and they reported to the Capo that Fleckfieber, typhus carrying lice, had escaped from this cage.
Capo Arthur Dietsch immediately reported this to the camp physician, Dr. Hoven, who was at that time representing, taking the place of Dr. Ding -Schuler, and Dr. Hoven, following Dietsch's advice, ordered the destruction of these infected lice. A second dispatch from Krakow was also burnt because one did not wish that such experiments should lead to high endangerment for the camp and should be continued.
Q. And you say that these typhus infected lice came from the typhus and virus research Institute of the OKH at Cracow?
Q. And do you know the name of the Director of that Institute?
A. From the correspondence between Dr. Ding and the Institute for Typhus and Virus Research in Cracow, I know that this was Dr. Eyer.
Q. Now, going back for a moment to the persons who were infected with typhus cirus in order to keep the cirus alive, can you state whether the persons who died as a result of that action are included in the diary kept by Dr. Ding?
A. The passage persons, as far as I can recollect, are not listed in the diary. They were, shall we say, a matter of course.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal where the typhus virus came from which was used in the camp?
A. The virus was obtained from various sources. At the beginning from the Behring Works and the Robert Koch Institute in Berlin. These first cultures which had been produced according to the Gildemeister and Haagen process turned out to be, however, insufficiently virile. In other words, infection didn't take. Thus the new method of infection which I have described was adopted, that is, intravenous injection of fresh blood infected with typhus, and the cultures required from these passage persons were obtained when they had lost their effectiveness, and sometimes these cultures would die down and were obtained from the OKH at Cracow, from the Typhus Institute, that is, of the OKH at Cracow.
Q. I believe you have probably told us something about where the typhus vaccines came from but would you be good enough to go over that matter again for us?
A. The various vaccines which were to be tried out came first of all from the Behring Works, secondly, from the I.G.Farben Works, and were mostly concerned with chemo-therapeuticals. In these series of experiments, menthylene blue and rutenol, percicol and nitro acridine was experimented with. Furthermore, there came from the State Institute at Copenhagen a vaccine that was made from the liver of mice, and there was an Italian vaccine made from the lungs of mice, and lastly a vaccine made from the lungs of dogs, according to the Cantacucene system developed at Bucharest.
Q. Did you obtain a vaccine from Eyer's Institute at Cracow?
A. And then there was the Weigel vaccine developed at the OKH Institute at Cracow. This was also in fact used continuously because it was considered the best of the lot, since in every series of experiments a few persons usually were treated with the Weigel vaccine made from the intestines of lice.
Q. And did you ever obtain any vaccines from the Robert Koch Institute?
A. The Robert Koch Institute, as far as I can recollect, supplied vaccine at the beginning, together with the Behring Works, or they supplied infecting substance. There I am not quite sure.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal whether these experimental subjects suffered to any appreciable extent during the course of these typhus experiments?
A. There we must be careful and draw a dividing line between the general psychic condition of the sould of these experimental persons and the physical condition, which they experienced through this disease. Every man in the camp knew that Block 46 was a dreadful place, and the fewest people in the camp had an exact idea regarding what was going on in Block 46. A dreadful horror would fall upon any one who would be brought into any sort of connection with this block. As persons were selected and taken to Block 46 through the sick bay then they knew that they were concerned with a lethal or fatal affair. The horror which was attached to this block was what made things even worse for them. Apart from that it was generally known in the camp that in Block 46 this Capo Arthur Dietsch was exercising iron discipline. There the cat of nine tails really ruled supreme. Everyone, therefore, who went to Block 46, as experimental persons then looked for the expected death and under certain circumstances a very long, drawn out and frightful death, which he was imagining all of the time, and he would also have to expect torture and complete removal of the last remainder of personal freedom. It was in that psychological condition that these experimental persons were waiting in the sick bays for a period of time, the length of which they did not know.